Stupid forging question

T

Trick

Joined
Mar 3, 2001
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351
Ok,This is probably a real stupid question,but,I can't figure it out.
I want to flatten and straighten out my steel,then get it hot enough to shape it around an anvil I made to have a shovel like cup.But I want to keep the inside nice cause there is no way I can put it back on the grinder.So,how is it possible?Basically the same thing I can't figure out is how you grind down a knife and get it the shape you want and almost to the final polishing then harden it.You get scale all over it then you have to put it back on the grinder.I am confused :(
 
I grind and hand sand down to about a 400 grit before heat treating. If you do this, the scale will come off without too much trouble. I usually don't go back to the grinder after heat treating. I'll finish my blades out by handsanding from a 220 gritt to around a 800 grit, then 00 steel wool followed by 0000 steel wool. Lastly, I use some type of rubbing compound such as Metal Glow on an old tee-shirt to really make the blade shine.

However, many people grind down to a mirror shine and buff. I'm not that good, and I don't have a buffer.

Hope this helps. -chris
 
I have the same problem on some of my bent carving knives. you shouldnt have to much problem if you aneal it first and then bend it cold, normalize, then harden it.

in other words; forge, aneal, grind, cold bend, normalize, harden, temper.

Chris is right about the clean up to control scale. You can use an electric sander if you want, but be careful with the courser grits.
 
I'm not smithing yet but isn't it true that whatever marks and dings and divots there are on the hammer face and the anvil will end up in the steel? Maybe you need to clean these up and even polish the face of a hammer to use for finnishing.
 
What I did was,I took a piece of railroad tie and had the welding shop weld on a piece of turned 2 inch solid rod on the top,I figured I could put the piece on it and shape it around that.But,I have to make a new hammer tool.I need to shape it concave to match the "anvil",I tried to use the hammer to bend a piece around but hitting it off to the side just did not work,I will figure that part out,but it is a nice clean(starting to rust some) piece on the railroad tie,so it should not leave any extra marks on the piece.I was thinking off taking an old 8lb sledge and shaping it and putting a short handle on it.I figure this step to get it how I want will have to be heated up.
As far as annealing goes,I tried,I heated it up and stuck it in unheated silica sand and left it.It was hot out that day,I know I should have it in a heated container to be consistent.I think the problem was I didn't get it near hot enough to anneal it properly.I was too lazy to find a magnet at the time,I had the fire going and just didn't want to walk away from it,I will next time though.I am still in the experimenting stages.
How do I normalize?It is 5160 spring steel(assume it really is,it is old model A truck springs,I have heard newer springs are not necessarily 5160)
Also,I had the first piece looking good,but did not have it near 400 grit.Would that help,the smoother the finish is the easier the scale will come off?Also,I read somewhere about a borax? dip?is this to help prevent the scale somewhat?If so,where do I get it and how do I do it?
I am really sorry for asking all of these questions and feel kinda stupid not knowing,but I figure if I do not ask,I will never know how to do it correctly and I want to nip as many bad habits in the bud now,instead of years down the road.
Thanks guys,your help is really appreciated!God Bless America!
 
Here's some info on the borax dip,it's from Bob Warner's site:http://home1.gte.net/1warner/home.htm ,"Use a mixture of borax and boiling water and dip the blades in....1/3 borax in a container and fill the rest with water bring to a boil.. Dip blade in, let dry then go about your normal heat treating. When you quench in oil the protective borax cover will flake right off and leave you with a blade that looks similar to what you started with and you won't have to grind that stubborn scale off!! Works great!!"
Regards, Greg
 
To do the bend in the steel like you are tlking about you will need a little different set up than you have explained.what you have set up now is a great drawing out setup.To do the shovel shape in the steel you need a fullering tool set up that has a rounded piece on the top and the bottom piece should be a cut uot to match the top piece.This set up is so that the top piece fits inside the bottom piece.This way when you strike the top of the fullering tool it will shape the steel to the shape that your bottom die is and the top piece shapes the inside of the steel.
You will be cleaning scale after heat treat no matter what you so.Some teqniques just make it a little easier to clean up.I used to grind all the way down to almost a finished edge then just hand rub out the blade after the heat treat,but I was getting way to much warppage and I was always getting a wavy edge.I tried leaving the edge a little thicker and all these problems disapeared.I also found that I was getting a better cutting edge from the start and not having to wait at least 3-4 good sharppenings before the full potential of the cutting abilities was achieved,This was thanks to Ed Fowlers articles in Blade Mag.
To anneal your 5160 you really don't need to use a magnet,just bring it up to a orangeish yellow color and then let it cool in still air till black then repeat this step 2 more times then do the heat one more time but this time put it straight in the sand which should have been heated and let it cool untill cold.To heat the sand is easy,all you have to do is just heat up a couple of small blocks of steel(any kind will do for this)and bury them in the sandone on each side of the container so the piece that you are annealing goes inbetween the two pieces.But really all you need to do is normalize the piece of steel that you are going to work.To do this justdo the heat and cool steps as with the annealing only on the last heat just let it cool like you did in still air till it is black in color and then start forging it.
To find out how to make the fullering dies or do any of the blacksmithing ways of bending and manipulating steel go to your local library and find some books on Blacksithing.They will show you how to make your own tongs and all kinds of neat things.
Good Luck and I hope this helps out a little.
Bruce
 
To make a shovel a dish or pot you need to have a concave form some guys uses the dished out end of a log or a swage block. I have done small pieces over the open end of a pipe, round the sharp edges of the pipe. Finish up the inside at a lower heat and smaller overlapping blows
 
Thanks everyone for the help!It is truly appreciated!I have some new ideas now and feel alot more confident.Thanks Again,
Ric
 
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