Submariners knives

[pa knifeguy]

Watched U571 this weekend. Good movie about WW2 submarine sailors and got me wondering what kinds of knives the navy issued them.
In one scene Matthew McConahey had what looked like a kabar on his belt.

 

[zzyzzogeton]

The Navy would have PRIMARILY issued 1 of 2 knives, although many others could have been, and were, issued.

The would have been issued either USN MK2s/USMC 1219C2s (same knife, different only in markings) or USN MK1s.

The MK2s are the 7" blade knives that frequently get called "kabars", although they were made by Camillus, Robeson-ShurEdge and PAL, as well as Union Cutlery (aka KABAR).

The MK1s are 5" blade knives and were manufacture by Camillus, Union Cutlery, PAL, Boker, Geneva Forge, Colonial, Robeson-ShurEdge (their No. 20).

They could have issued any type of 4" to 6" fixed blade during the first 2 years as the government requested that civilians donate any spare hunting knives they had to the war effort.

A sailor could also have acquired any of the "official" 6" knives that the army had made - the Cattaraugus 225Q, the Case XX 337Q6, the PAL RH36 an others.

On a sub, the most likely candidate would have been the MK1s. Any sub is short on space. WW2 subs were even more cramped than modern subs, and shorter knives would have been the "logical" choice, but in reality, it could have been almost anything, including 1920 vintage Marbles Ideals or ......

 

[jackknife]

Just guessing here, but I wonder if the bulk of issue knives in WW2 wasn't a pocket knife of some kind?

Many years ago, in Knife World magazine, they had an article on the knives of WW2, and Camillus was a giant of manufacture back then. The number was literally up in the millions of knives they made for the armed services, most of which were pocketknives of many types. Mostly the TL-29's and all steel MIL-K knives. On a sub, I wonder how much need there was for a fixed blade, rather than a pocket knife with a screw driver on it.

I had two uncles who were WW2 vets, one army air force the other navy, both had pocket knives issued during the war for many years after. The army air force uncle had a all steel scout knife, and my Uncle that served in the navy still carried a Camillus stockman of all things, with "Property U.S. Government" etched on the main blade. Used it until all three blades were worn down to steel toothpicks. That uncle, my Uncle Mike had served in PT boats, and he was issued the pocket knife and .38 revolver of all things when they were out on patrol. I guess the navy kept the .38 and Uncle Mike kept the stockman.

Our niece who recently served on the U.S.S. Blue Ridge, was issued a Multitool. Times have changed I guess.

 

[pa knifeguy]

Thanks for the answers guys.

 

[zzyzzogeton]

Pocket knives were the order of the day for most sailors, hence the bazillion that were made during WW2. However, fixed blades were required carry for boat crews. A sub MIGHT have had as many as a dozen or so fixed blades in a small arms locker to outfit a couple of raft crews.

If a line fouls while the boat is being lowered/released or someone gets caught in a bight, or a line gets wrapped up in a propeller, only a fixed blade could be used quickly enough to possibly avoid a disaster for the 1st 2 events (they still occurred anyway) or be strong enough to cut through a 1" diameter line quickly in rough waters.

And you gotta remember, this was from a MOVIE. They seldom get it right, historically. It looks a lot cooler on film for McConahey to have a fixed blade on his hip than a pocket knife in his pocket.

 

[pa knifeguy]

I know its a movie .Thats why I wondered what the real deal was.

 

[welsh]

And you gotta remember, this was from a MOVIE. They seldom get it right, historically.

Kinda like how the events portrayed actually involved British sailors, took place seven months before the US even entered the war, and were kept secret from the United States government for eight months for just that reason?

Any knife that came anywhere near that sub was made in Sheffield.

 

[Lycosa]

Skip- Roger will know the answer to your question.
PM me with your email and I'll get it to him.
rolf

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

The one thing that strikes me in all this, is just the idea of a belt knife on a submarine. At least in the modern era (I was in the Navy in the '80s), the Navy has discouraged, and/or enforced rules against, any sort of exposed metal on the body or uniform (belt buckles, watches, rings, etc) in engineering areas of subs, due to the possibility of spark hazards igniting hydrogen gas produced by the sub's lead-acid batteries (serving as the power source of propulsion when engines/reactors aren't online). In the tight, confined spaces of a WW2 sub, the thought of a large steel-pommelled fixed blade scrubbing or clattering against all-things-metal in a workspace makes me cringe a bit. And that doesn't even take into account the clattering noise generated by such things, obviously a problem for 'silent running' subs. I don't know when the U.S. Navy starting regulating these things prior to my serving (most military safety regs are 'written in blood' after something really bad happens), but it would seem a bad idea to me, whether it was regulated or not.


David

 

[zzyzzogeton]

David, I agree. In real life, the bubbleheads would not normally be running around with fixed blades. They would just be issued on an "as needed" basis.

Hmm? I wonder if one of the reasons (other than to save on metal usage) that MK1s started showing up with wood and bakelite pommels was to eliminate a spark source?

 

[leghog]

... any sort of exposed metal on the body or uniform (belt buckles, watches, rings, etc) in engineering areas of subs, due to the possibility of spark hazards igniting hydrogen gas produced by the sub's lead-acid batteries (serving as the power source of propulsion when engines/reactors aren't online). In the tight, confined spaces of a WW2 sub, the thought of a large steel-pommelled fixed blade scrubbing or clattering against all-things-metal in a workspace makes me cringe a bit.

Many had aluminum pommels.

 

[wayben]

I was stationed on a sub in the 70's, running the boats propulsion plant. I don't know of any sub sailor being issued a knife by the Navy at that time. A lot of folks carried either a Buck 110 or Case folding hunter in a case on their hip. This was prior to multi-tools becoming so popular. The small arms locker contained small arms, not knives. They wouldn't do much good anyway if they were locked away in a locker. There were two escape trunks (hatches) on board that contained some equipment needed for abandoning ship. Each of those contained a hard-hat diver's knife, a wood handled stainless bladed knife that screwed into a brass scabbard.

The battery compartment isn't in the engineering spaces on a sub, it's generally amid ship lowest level. It's well ventilated and sampled to prevent H2 build up. If hydrogen did build a knife sparking would be the least of anyone's worries. There is plenty of equipment on current subs (turbine generators and M-G sets for two) that produce sparks.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Many had aluminum pommels.

Metal is metal, and electricity doesn't care which type it is. Engineering or technical spaces on Navy ships/subs are full of equipment with exposed electrical terminals and contacts. Any exposed metal on the body in close quarters (such as a sub's battery compartment) is a risk for contacting such things and short-circuiting them. At least in the modern era, ANY exposed metal on the body or uniform is restricted or forbidden in such spaces, by safety rules/regulations. Technicians doing electrical/electronics work are trained from day 1 against making such mistakes (I did this type of work in the Navy, as an Electronics Technician), though it still happens at times when techs still try to 'bend the rules' or get complacent/lazy about such things. When doing such close-quarters work around electrical hazards, we were always directed by spec'd procedure to remove or otherwise cover/insulate any exposed metal on the body (watches/rings, belt buckles, tools & knives on belts, etc). Similar rules were in place for the training I went through, part of which included training in fully operational submarine-prototype engineering spaces and battery compartments (VERY tight quarters).

Aluminum may not present as much risk for sparking by impact (dropping, hammering, etc.), but that's only a small part of a much bigger picture.

I realize such rules may not have been in place or enforced at some time in the past, but almost all of the Navy's safety regs were 'written in blood' after deadly accidents, as a former Navy friend of mine used to say.


David (USN 1981-'87)

 

[Modoc ED]

I was in the U.S. Navy for 24-years. These are the two most commonly issued knives whether aboard ship or ashore that I saw.

TL-29 style:

Utility style:

In fact both of the knives above were issued to me while in the Navy.

The only guys allowed to carry fixed-blade knives aboard any ship I was on were Bosuns Mates and they carried them in sheaths made for the knife and a marlin spike or fid. I did ride a sub for just a short time once (once was enough) - San Diego (Point Loma) to Hawaii (Pearl Harbor) and saw no fixed blade knives on her.

This is a Case folding hunter that I bought at the Navy Exchange the day I graduated from boot-camp at Great Lakes in September 1965 and carried almost every day while in the Navy from 1965 - 1989.

This is how I carried it while aboard ship and on base.

When ashore on liberty I carried it rubber banned to my ankle under my sock (without sheath). Most of us also carried our smokes on the ankle under a sock too.

Carry on

 

[markv]

an old friend of mine assembled knives for the war effort. he said they used a sharpened piece of pipe to cut out the leather spacers for the handles.

buzz

 

[markv]

how much$ was the Case two blade folding hunter?
thanks for your reply

buzz

 

[Modoc ED]

I can't remember. It was pretty cheap though as my base pay then was only about $75 a month less taxes, etc.. I think probably about $10 - $15.

 

[Old Hunter]

I bought these two riggers knives from the estate sale of a career Sailor. There were a lot of items from the 1950's, 60's, and 70's in his effects. The Camillus is a 1970's vintage knife while the Schrade-Walden is a 1950's/60's vintage. The Camillus is free-hand etched on the bolster and on the blade with Deck #2 (not sure if it will be visible in the photo). I would think knives similar to these two could have been WW-II issue as well. OH

 

[pa knifeguy]

Thanks for the input guys. My brother was served as an ordinance man on aircraft carriers during Viet Nam and was issued a tl 29.
He carried a Solingen bowie when he had to go in country and strip or destroy ordinance.

 

[afishhunter]

A pocket knife would make more sense aboard a sub. Be more useful, anyway, except maybe in the galley. While I never served (I have a physical defect, I could not pass the physical for the Navy, Air Force, or Army (tried all three) The Marine recruiter simply said "you go to h*ll" when I walked into his office.) I can't imagine there was/is a lot of jobs requiring a knife aboard a sub while underway, except possibly in the galley and/or scullery.

Modoc Ed, your issued knives look great. I've always had a soft spot for those Camillus 1760 Demo/Utility knives. I'm still trying to find an affordable original. In the mean time, I have the Marbles rendition of it. Not sure if Marbles thinks we're "smarter" today, or if the Government thought GI's were ... unsmart ... but Marbles did not see fit to stamp "CAN OPENER" on that blade.