super edge vs. good edge

[BruceMack]

I can get a good edge for slicing paper or cardboard. I can't get a super edge for splitting hairs. Enlighten me, please, as to how long it takes for the super edge to become just good with your daily usage. What am I missing with my ordinary sharpening ability?

 

[BilboBaggins]

If you want some good information on how to achieve the insane levels of sharp, it is worth your time to look through the threads in the Maintenance, Tinkering, and Embellishment section of the forums. Here: https://www.bladeforums.com/forums/maintenance-tinkering-embellishment.794/

Good hunting and enjoy the ride as sharpening is one of the more bottomless holes you can fall into in the knife hobby IMHO.

 

[P2P]

I think I see what your getting at, I’ve wondered the same thing. Is the extra effort and practice worth it to get to splitting hair sharpness when arm shaving is already a great edc level of sharpness. How many boxes can I open before the edge won’t split hair anymore, one cardboard box?

Personally I dunno cause hair popping arm hair is as sharp as I can get them. Never could whittle head hair.

Anyone else help us here? obviously steel, HRC, polish, and geometry play a part but...

 

[Sonnydaze]

...haven't paid a lot of attention to all that... I like to sharpen until it push-cuts easily through Yellow Pages sheets in BOTH directions...

 

[Jason_W]

I generally go to a mirror finish with my Shapton's on a new blade (up to 15k), using a USB microscope to check things out along the way.

 

[jll346]

There are just so many factors involved. Type of steel, angle, stone quality, etc. I actually watched a good video last night. Guy sharpened a $1 kitchen knife with different quality stones and tested after each one. Amazing what high quality stones produce.

 

[DeadboxHero]

I can get a good edge for slicing paper or cardboard. I can't get a super edge for splitting hairs. Enlighten me, please, as to how long it takes for the super edge to become just good with your daily usage. What am I missing with my ordinary sharpening ability?

If your not splitting hairs then its two things

1. Too much variation in your sharpening angle kills a "crisp" edge
2. Improper Burr removal

For reference, the edge should tree top hair at 1000 grit if done correctly

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

A (literally) 'hair-splitting' edge likely wouldn't continue to be so, after some 'normal' EDC usage anyway, especially if any of that use includes cutting anything even moderately abrasive (paper, cardboard, wood, etc). Just the slightest degradation of the apex kills such an edge fast.

The upside is, if the edge was well-finished in the first place, once the 'trick' edge is gone after a cut or three, the remaining edge should still be very good or excellent for other 'normal' usage. Could still shave at least a bit too, if the steel is reasonably hard and the edge is cleaned up of burrs and other weak remnants.

I generally stop at effortless & repeatable paper-cutting, as a determination of a good edge. If it cuts paper effortlessly (push, slice) and repeatedly, and especially if it does so after some other cutting in wood, for example, I call that a well-finished and durable edge.

If it happens to do some of the trick-cutting, like hair-whittling or tree-topping, that's gravy. But I never expect that behavior to last very long in real use, and I don't aim for that specifically when sharpening my own knives. For that extra one-half of one percent in cutting performance, all the extra work to make it so usually isn't worth it, for me. The result is fleeting; it's nice to see and play with, but it won't ever be durable enough to endure real-world use.

 

[BruceMack]

If your not splitting hairs then its two things

1. Too much variation in your sharpening angle kills a "crisp" edge
2. Improper Burr removal

For reference, the edge should tree top hair at 1000 grit if done correctly

I’m using the Sharpmaker brown and fine rods after getting a less than 15 degree bevel with the Lansky. I strop afterwards. Any tips for better consistency with the Sharpmaker? The edges are certainly paper-slicing sharp for push cuts and remain so for a satisfying interval of use.

 

[DeadboxHero]

I’m using the Sharpmaker brown and fine rods after getting a less than 15 degree bevel with the Lansky. I strop afterwards. Any tips for better consistency with the Sharpmaker? The edges are certainly paper-slicing sharp for push cuts and remain so for a satisfying interval of use.

Mostly just practice but the death is in the details, your scratches need to be crisp and consistent from the shoulder of the bevel to the apex, burr should be made minimal and removed without crushing the Apex.
Any deviation in angle kills a crisp edge.
Hold 'er steady mate.

 

[BruceMack]

Thanks Shawn. I watch your videos and enjoy them even if I can't emulate your ability

 

[DeadboxHero]

Thanks Bruce, The Sharpmaker should be able to make a treetoping edge so stick with it.

 

[wardcleaver]

Iv'e always carried very small, fair quality knives since I was a kid, and have been collecting nicer production knives the last few years and investing in mostly DMT stones to learn the sharpening game. I do a lot of whittling (during slow times at work) and
like finding out what it takes to make a knife dull...and what it takes to get it sharp again.

I'm in the same boat as you guys, ....can get a edge that easily shaves, push cuts receipt paper and so on. Even though it doesn't have a lot of real practical applications, I feel the need develop my sharpening skills well enough to whittle hair.

Does that make me a certified edge psycho?

 

[Blues]

Does that make me a certified edge psycho?

It makes you one of the faithful...

 

[Alberta Ed]

Iv'e always carried very small, fair quality knives since I was a kid, and have been collecting nicer production knives the last few years and investing in mostly DMT stones to learn the sharpening game. I do a lot of whittling (during slow times at work) and
like finding out what it takes to make a knife dull...and what it takes to get it sharp again.

I'm in the same boat as you guys, ....can get a edge that easily shaves, push cuts receipt paper and so on. Even though it doesn't have a lot of real practical applications, I feel the need develop my sharpening skills well enough to whittle hair.

Does that make me a certified edge psycho?

Yes. Welcome to the club.

 

[Wowbagger]

I can't get a super edge for splitting hairs. Enlighten me, please, as to how long it takes for the super edge to become just good with your daily usage. What am I missing with my ordinary sharpening ability?

Well let me say this about that :
Sharpening a dull edge from scratch free hand, for me, is a mind numbing waste of time and concentration. I can do it and get hair whittling but the imprecision of it (is that a word?) just irritates the crap out of me.
But
when I busss out the Edge Pro and introduce a little "locked on target" . . . a little "same angle" into the operation I can just relax, set 'er up and with little effort and with every-time-constancy I can't hardly keep from putting a hair whittling edge on every knife I put in the Edge Pro. I use only a few stones, usually 220, 500, 1000, 4000. No strops or any other fooling around. (the fifth stone shown in this stack is a 120)



And you know what ?
I ENJOY THAT A WHOLE LOT MORE THAN SHARPENING A KNIFE BY HAND ! ! ! !
Now
some photos and examples to answer the "just good" and "how long does the hair splitting edge last".
I have been EDCing the skinny knife (a Case Slimline Trapper in their SS steel) for weeks now. When I sharpen it on the Edge Pro or touch it up by hand with the Spyderco Ceramic Ultra Fine Triangle Rod shown the thing is always between hair whittling and tree topping.

Used at work cutting pretty tame stuff (some plastic bag packaging and some soft rubber, though some what dirty bags and rubber) it certainly looses its hair whittling in a day and depending on the day it will even get rolled here and there and be less than shave sharp.
I almost daily touch it up free hand with the Ceramic rod and usually I have to debure it on a small hunk of Norton 8,000 yellow water stone. Today was the exception; the stuff I cut was clean and the edge is still very sharp and in great condition.

So yeah . . . I get it "silly sharp" because it is as easy to do as a lesser edge but it looses it fast so less sharp might be more practical but I enjoy the silly sharp and it lets me know by how it feels on my thumb nail that I have an accurately formed edge.


Oh boy . . . oh yeah baby . . . then there is the good stuff . . . .
whole other ball game ! ! !
For instance this sucker; the Spyderco Para2 in M4 tool steel with a really nice heat treat.

Once this guy is accurately sharpened on the Edge Pro to polished (no roundy round convexing from free hand or stropping ) and fairly thinly ground just behind the edge with relatively shallow angles that form the sharpening bevel . . . no secondary or micro bevel )
. . . well . . . he is good for weeks of cutting at work and not just the light duty stuff . . . I am talking trimming challenging and fairly dirty hard rubber and dirty rubberized cloth etc.

I get home and check the edge on my thumb nail and on my hair and . . . no rolls . . . no chips . . . at least shave sharp and often still hair whittling.
I mean . . . ! . . . right ?
And if it isn't shave sharp . . . after weeks of carry; a little touch on the Ultra Fine triangle rod (NO OTHER STONE REQUIRED . . . that's soooooo nice) . . . often the M4 is then even more tree topping than when it came off the Edge Pro 4,000 Shapton Glass stone.

Scary stuff this M4.
It's as if after weeks of use it says "yeah . . . I'm starting to get sharp and settled in now".

The only time I really had to go back to the Edge Pro with it because of actual edge damage was when I went to close it and it went flying out of my hand and spent some time ricocheting off of stuff.

The M390 steel alloy in the full size Ritter Griptillian knife shown in the third photo with the Slimline Trapper above is some where in between but not far behind the M4.

PS: I will say I am very careful with my knives in how I use them and what I cut with them. It is pretty easy to dull a knife, any knife, if one is cavalier and inattentive.