superglued tiles inside a box/canister weld?

NickWheeler

NickWheeler

Joined
Dec 3, 1999
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So the last several tiled mosaic billets I've done, I've forge welded inside of a "box/canister" made out of mild steel.

Normally I tack weld the 45 degree cut pieces on the outside edges, then wrap in SS foil, then build a "box" around it and weld around completely. It's a bit of PITA, but all of the billets have come out SUPER clean... you wouldn't even know where the weld line is if it weren't for the pattern shift.

So this week I put one together but had the bright idea to superglue the tiles together instead of tack welding them. That is THE ONLY thing I did differently.... but after forging and removing the box....there is a very distinct, thin silver line between the tiles. If I hadn't done all the work on it myself, you'd have a hard time convincing me that the lines aren't pieces of pure nickel between each tile. :confused: :foot:

Any of you guys have this happen? Any ideas here???

Oh, and the tiles were all milled flat and surface ground so they fit together TIGHT AND FLAT before building the box/forge welding.

THANKS!!! :)
 
Daniel, I'm sure there's a chemical reaction of some sort going on... I just don't know what.... or if it's a problem other than pissing me off because I wasn't expecting it.

Visuals always help me, so.... (these are just quick and dirty etches, but hopefully they show what's going on)

First one is a billet I made up last week (no lines).
standard.jpg


Here's the one in question from yesterday. Similar pattern, everything done the same as far as the final forge welds and prep.... other than the superglue.
standard.jpg
 
If I had to venture a guess,
The glue created a barrier of oxides and such that separated the pieces enough to create a synthetic grain boundary. The nickel and other carbides may have migrated into this area, as they tend to do between grains. This created a wide (relative to normal grain boundaries) area of shiny nickel and alloy metals.

On the stacked and welded blocks you did before, there was nothing separating the grains from each other, and they grew together making a nearly invisible joint.
 
Could it be that some of the SS foil welded itself to the end cracks in the billet stack, and has now become part of the damascus? only problem with that is I dont see any decarburized areas as normally would be seen in a carbon/stainless san mai blade.

Jason
 
I've been thinking something along those lines Stacy.

Jason- I don't think I followed your idea.

Just for clarity---- Working with mosaic.... you're working with the pattern that shows on the end of the billet. Like this-
standard.jpg


And you have to get the pattern from the end out onto the length of the billet. You can do this by cutting the billet into "tiles" and flipping them. You can see that in this photo. The silver lines that are bugging me are in-between each of these tiles.
standard.jpg
 
Nick, I wonder if you get a tighter seam thru thermal expansion & contraction from welding as compared to a glue gap. Did you coat the surfaces, then clamp, or clamp and run a glue bead around the seam? [just guessing here...]

Or maybe a chemical migration from the glue that is resisting the etch?? [more guessing...]

If it's controllable, might be a cool aspect in certian patterns.
 
A couple more thoughts......

Is super glue safe to burn?

Are the boundries as strong as your other welds?

Interesting situation. Let us know what you conclude.
 
Ya know Nick.....sometimes I get some grey "lines" in between my fourway stacks when welded. I never could figure them out, the welds are sound, just the lines bothered me. However the go away after more welding or thermal cycling. Is that bullet right outs the canister or did you thermal cycle it for grinding? Im assuming your not going to forge that beautiful billet.

Shawn
 
Deweyknives said:
Is super glue safe to burn?
Click to expand...

I am quite sure it is not! :eek: ;) LOL

Deweyknives said:
Are the boundries as strong as your other welds?
Click to expand...

This is what I'm worried about Randy. I'd rather not destroy this chunk, but if that's what it comes down to... :grumpy:

Oh, and I laid them all out on the surface grinder chuck, then ran a bit of thin superglue over the top. And I agree that it could be cool (so long as it's not a structural fault line) if it was done on purpose. But in this case it pisses me off. :foot: LOL
 
Shawn- I know what you mean about grey lines as I've had that before too... but this is a really bright shiny line... just like pure nickel would be. I know it doesn't show too well in the pic, but the silver line is much brighter than the 15N20 in the billet.

I think the key factor here is I remember Owen Wood using superglue in something for one of his super amazing damascus creations at Josh Smith's hammer-in a few years ago, but I didn't remember exactly what it is he said or did. So color me dumb for thinking, "Well Owen Wood used superglue!!!"..... when I really don't remember what he did with it. :o :foot: :o
 
Nick, Owen did basically the same thing that you did. He super glued all his pieces together before Boxing them for the weld. I have no idea what the lines could be but just for giggles and Sh!ts you might wrap the billet in some foil add a bit of charcoal or graphite and soak at welding temp for an hour or so.
 
Hello Nick,

Don't know what to say regarding the lines beyond what others have said already. FWIW, I go a much easier way for my tiles than building a can and I have not had one of these billets fail yet (knock on wood). I just TIG weld all the way around each tile using NO filler rod. Any depression from the welding process gets removed via the squishing in the press and no lines are detectable. No foil to mess with, no can to grind off, no flux needed. Here's a pic of my last one.

TIGFFBillet001.jpg
 
Thanks guys :)

Eric- I have done it that way a few times, and it definitely has it's benefits, but the thing I don't like about it, is it destroys the pattern to whatever depth your weld penetration is. When you put the tiles in a box, all the mosaic that went in... comes out. Well, unless maybe you put superglue in it, LOL.
 
Good to know that pattern could be destroyed with the TIG process. With all the billets I've done, this has never happened to me. Just my experience. May be that since all my billets are surface ground before etching, I've effectively removed any issue that may have been caused by welding. Thanks Nick!
 
ok so how bout this instead of glueing the joints jsut use a piece of scrap and glue the tiles to the scrap strip and grind it off after you get it out of the welding box
 
It's happened to you if you've done it Eric ;) The TIG fusion welding process creates a molten weld puddle, and there's no way the pattern is going to survive that process. It's not like it's wrecking the entire billet, it's just causing waste right where every fusion weld is. When mosaic billets often represent at least a day.... if not several days worth of work, every little bit saved is a good thing! :)
 
I'm with you Nick. I must just waste too much...:) Will have to learn to be more efficent with my materials. :thumbup:
 
Super glue should be fairly safe to burn. It is not cyanide, it is actually more or less acrylic, which is the base for making carbon fiber fibers. It is primarily carbon, hydrogen and oxygen. My guess is pretty much aligned with Stacy. I think the carbon formed carbides which etched lighter. Might go away with more heats.
 
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