Surefire 6P/6Z/M2/D2 vs. Streamlight Scorpion

[Bucky]

I have posted this in the Surefire forum and on the new www.candlepowerforums, but I realize that many people who don't visit those forums may have a good information on this topic, so I will post it here as well.

I know that many have both a 6P-derivative light and a Scorpion and I was wondering what everyone here thinks about the two in comparison to each other as far as beam, whiteness of the light, and cost.

Having just received my Streamlight Scorpion, I noticed that it produces a noticeably whiter light than either the P60 or P61 bulbs of my M2. I was actually quite disappointed, considering the M2 costs about 4 times as much money.

On the package of my M2 it says "Xenon/Halogen" while the Scorpion say "Xenon." I can tell you first hand that Xenon produces whiter light than Xenon/Halogen. A simple change from one to the other would produce brighter light. The better question is why Surefire has not been using Xenon-only bulbs to begin with.

Additionally, I must say that even though I love both my 9p and my M2, I may have thought twice about purchasing them if I had bought the Scorpion first. In extensive testing of the Scorpion against the M2 with both bulb options, I found that even though the M2 has a more focused beam than the Scorpion when optimally focused, the whiter light of the Scorpion made it about a horse apiece with the P60 if not even better, when tested on dark pathways through the woods. Not to mention the utility of the Scorpion when not "focussed" for close range work. True, the P61 bulb is noticeably brighter than the Scorpion, but really not by nearly as much as one might think. I tested all lights and bulbs in numerous situations really wanting the Surefire to be considerably better, but it wasn't. Surefire is a better light, but certainly not even close to 4 times better. I do think the simplest change that Surefire could make is to employ purely Xenon bulbs to ensure as white a light as possible. A Surefire light normally focussed and with a Xenon-only bulb like the Scorpion might make a big difference.

By purchasing my M2 and 9P, I think that I have shown a willingness to pay top dollar for the smallest, brightest flashlight available. I just wish that flashlight was considerably better than a competitor that costs appreciably less. A flashlight I purchased for $27 should blow away one that retails for $150. I know that my M2 is waterproof and has 2 light output choices and has a lock-out tailcap and a grip-ring and an octagonal bezel, but light output and beam pattern is the most important part of a flashlight. Features walk and ouput talks.

I am a fan of Surefire flashlights and will continue to purchase them, I just wish that they were better than the competitors by a wider margin, especially considering the wide margin of difference in cost.

Bucky

 

[Brock]

I agree with most of what you have said, but when I compare them side by side they look identical in beam color. Could it be that your surefire has more hours on the lamp? I know they "yellow" as they age. Although if Surefire isn't putting Halogen in the lamp (which I really doubt) that would definitely make the lamp yellow faster.

I agree that the price difference is much more than the actual difference between the lights. I am also a huge fan of Surefire. I will try to take a pic of the surefire with a P60 lamp and the streamlight scorpion.

Brock

 

[Walt Welch]

The literature with my Sure Fire 3P and 6P says that the lamps are 'high pressure xenon.' The 9P, which comes with a warning NOT to attach it to a weapon, as it is not shock proof enough, says the lamp is 'xenon - halogen.'

Halogen (chlorine, fluorine, bromine and iodine) lamps have a lower color temperature than do xenon lamps. This means that they are yellower. Yellower does not mean less light, however. I remember when I set up my first NiCd Mag Light with a rechargeable type krypton (a noble gas; others are neon, argon and xenon) lamp.

My first impression was that the krypton lamp was dimmer, as the color was yellower. When it got dark, however, it was clear that the krypton lamp was putting out a lot more light than the alkaline Mag Light was. I think that this misleading situation may have been at work when you posted:

I can tell you first hand that Xenon produces whiter light than Xenon/Halogen. A simple change from one to the other would produce brighter light.

I believe you can now see the error of the above statement. A whiter light may look brighter than one of a lower color temperature, but brightness is not a direct function of color temperature. Thus, changing to a xenon lamp would yield whiter light than a xenon - halogen one, but not necessarily BRIGHTER light.

On the other hand, that whiter light may, in fact, be brighter. I compared the Carley xenon lamp against the KSR series lamp (Krypon Star Rechargeable) while in Mendocino in a dark vineyard. I could see objects near and far much better with the xenon lamp. This is very interesting to me, as the specs published by Carley here:
http://www.carleylamps.com/star.htm#Kyrypton%20Rechargeable%20Batteries

State that the 3 cell xenon lamp produces 4.3 spherical candlepower, and the KSR 3 cell 1.7A lamp produces 7.5 sc. Yet, in actual testing, the xenon lamp was brighter.
I have no idea as to why this is the case. I will say that I intend to switch all my flashlights over to xenon lamps as my rechargeable batteries fail with time (although some are 15 years old and going strong). Not only brighter, the xenon lamps burn for 10 hours or so, and the KSR 1.7A only burns for about 90 min.

Walt

 

[Bucky]

If I mistakenly stated that changing to pure Xenon lamps would make the lamps brighter, then I misspoke. I realize that whiter is not always brighter. The point I was trying to make in my post was twofold for the most part:

First, I was trying to express my disappointment to a certain extent with the beam quality and whiteness of the Surefire lights versus the Scorpion light considering the substantial price difference. Surefire lights are better than lower priced Scorpion-type lights, but for the difference in price, Surefire lights should either lower thier prices or improve their lights. Surefires are the best and brightest small flashlights, but not THAT much better than competitors priced unbelievably lower. I don't mind paying more for the Surefires, but myself and most people in this forum are much more knowledgeable about flashlights and prodigal in their purchasing. I think that the ordinary person who spent twice as much for the 6P as for the Scorpion, might very well feel ripped-off. The 6P is better, but very few (mostly forumites and other flashlight freaks) would be willing to pay for the small difference.

Second, I was trying to point out that I thought that Xenon lights were whiter, and therefore that Surefire should try to use pure Xenon lamps to produce the brightest AND whitest light. The whiteness should not come at the expense of the brightness, but rather it should make the light brighter. A more expensive flashlight should not only produce a brighter white, but also a whiter light. I think Surefire should offer pure Xenon lamps in their lights to produce a whiter 65 lumen 6P or a whiter 105 lumen 9P. I may be missing something here, but I see no reason why Surefire can't switch from Xenon/Halogen to pure Xenon without sacrificing brightness or lumen output, while actually increasing the whiteness of the light.

Bucky

 

[Skyline]

I may be missing something here, but I see no reason why Surefire can't switch from Xenon/Halogen to pure Xenon without sacrificing brightness or lumen output, while actually increasing the whiteness of the light.

From www.carleylamps.com/halogen.asp:

Carley Halogen lamps are unique because Carley pressurizes all of its Halogen Lamps with only Xenon Gas. Several miniature lamps companies produce Halogen Lamps but choose to use Argon as the fill gas for their Halogen Lamps. Xenon Gas provides a 30% +/- increase in candle power per watt over Argon Gas.

The "Halogen" portion of a Carley Halogen Lamp is obtained by adding a small percent of Halogen Gas to a high pressurized Xenon Gas filled lamp. The Halogen is responsible for the cleaning Tungsten deposit or Tungsten pollution off the inside of the lamp wall and then placing the collected Tungsten back onto the filament. This cycle of Tungsten pollution and Tungsten clean up is constantly occurring in a Halogen Lamp and is called the "Halogen Cycle".

A "Clean" Halogen Lamp will maintain its candle power and brightness over its specified lifetime at a much greater rate than the same "Dirty" lamp that is a pure gas filled pump.

Looking at Carley's tables of Xenon/Halogen lamps versus their pure Xenon lamps, I see no reason to believe Xenon/Halogen are any less "white" than pure Xenon. The highest Kelvin Color available for either type is 3100.

Personally speaking, I'd much prefer a Xenon/Halogen lamp. A pure Xenon lamp may get fouled up with tungsten pollution very quickly, greatly reducing light output.


[This message has been edited by Skyline (edited 09-13-2000).]