Surface Grinder advice

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Aug 30, 2018
Messages
13
I have been thinking hard about getting a surface grinder and have really struggled with which way to go with the purchase. Currently I don't do folders but hope to in the future so I need something with descent accuracy. I am doing quite a few billets and need something to help get everything flat and parallel. My real struggle is whether I should purchase an older machine or purchase something newer like a tomach or grizzly.

Obviously the money for a newer machine is three or four times more than what I can get into an older Harig or Brown and Sharpe. The newer machines like the Tormach offer a warranty and peace of mind of not discovering hidden problems with the older machines.

I have found a Harig Bridgeport Manual model 612 with a 6X18 Walker chuck locally and can purchase it for around $2300. It appears to be in pretty good condition but I have never spent any time running a surface grinder.

In the knife world is a manual machine sufficient or would it be wise to look at a hydraulic machine?

So many questions.......lol. I am just trying to get as much advice as possible before making the purchase. I know most of you guys are experts using these machines so help a brother out!
 
I'm not here much anymore, but I own 5 surface grinders at the moment, and have had that many come and go previously. Since nobody seems to be chiming in, I'll give you my opinion, but it should be prefaced by this caveat: I enjoy working with machine tools, repairing, maintaining, and understanding the way they function internally, so take that into consideration, however, I would never recommend a new SG to most makers, unless they are production makers where time is more valuable than spending 10-20x more.

I do know a couple of people with the Tormach, and for what it is, the only little automatic SG you can buy that I'm aware of, it's an interesting option. I definitely wouldn't recommend a grizzly, any new hobbyist class import SG, is going to be shittier new, than a half worn out legit industrial domestic or european quality machine. They're also incredibly ubiquitous, every machine outfit in the country used to have and run 1 or a dozen, but since the rise of high speed feed machining centers, and modern insert tech that can often produce fully acceptable or even great finishes and accuracy straight off the machine, there's much less need for them, and fewer people still that understand how to operate them to their capabilities.

You however, are likely to never need the potential accuracy capabilities of a top of the line SG, especially if you're one of those makers that's determined to believe a belt conversion is all win (it isn't better for most uses, just hogging where accuracy is a very low priority, I use them, but have all my machines setup to easily swap between contact wheels and stones because nothing beats a stone for accuracy, and versatility). Basically any good, not-totally clapped out SG is going to do what you need, and you can find one almost anywhere in the US with a little patience, for $500-1500. I personally wouldn't pay over $800-1000 unless it's a ball bearing, high precision, auto feed, very well kept machine, with accessories.


That Harig is a decent machine, but it's really a glorified bench model, just like the ubiquitous boyar schultz's, which sits on a heavy looking, but mostly sheet metal base. Still, it's every bit good enough, and should be much better than a grizzly unless someone had a grudge against it. The price however, is outrageous. It would have to be a high end swiss machine in near new condition for almost any SG to be worth that, in the 6x12 or 6x18 size class.


Newer machines only offer peace of mind. They have no proven track record, and are notorious for not being supported 10 years down the road, when your warranty is well expired, and the cost cutting measures start to rear their ugly head. If you find a machine that's 20-30 years old, well taken care of, you probably can still get some parts for it if it's domestic (although the prices will make you cringe), but more importantly, it's more likely to be good for another 20-30 years, if you treat it well. My workhorse, is 60 years old, and still going as strong as the day I got her, almost 10 years ago. (Landis 618 Hydraulic) I paid $800 for her, and I've never paid more for another, although I would, as above, for the right machine.
 
What javand said. I think belt conversions are valuable for a knife maker (which is 180 degrees to my position when I looked at it as a machinist) but frankly we generally don't need the accuracy we like to think we do, and finish and time are more important.

But yeah, surface grinders are so prevalent, and so useless to most garage shop folks, that fantastic, heavy, capable machines are sold at near scrap price.

I favor the brown and sharpes for one reason: the spindle is isolated from the motor. Because of that you can replace the motor with practically anything you can shoe horn into the machine if needed, as opposed to finding a grinder quality balanced and bearinged motor.
 
I'm not here much anymore, but I own 5 surface grinders at the moment, and have had that many come and go previously. Since nobody seems to be chiming in, I'll give you my opinion, but it should be prefaced by this caveat: I enjoy working with machine tools, repairing, maintaining, and understanding the way they function internally, so take that into consideration, however, I would never recommend a new SG to most makers, unless they are production makers where time is more valuable than spending 10-20x more.

I do know a couple of people with the Tormach, and for what it is, the only little automatic SG you can buy that I'm aware of, it's an interesting option. I definitely wouldn't recommend a grizzly, any new hobbyist class import SG, is going to be shittier new, than a half worn out legit industrial domestic or european quality machine. They're also incredibly ubiquitous, every machine outfit in the country used to have and run 1 or a dozen, but since the rise of high speed feed machining centers, and modern insert tech that can often produce fully acceptable or even great finishes and accuracy straight off the machine, there's much less need for them, and fewer people still that understand how to operate them to their capabilities.

You however, are likely to never need the potential accuracy capabilities of a top of the line SG, especially if you're one of those makers that's determined to believe a belt conversion is all win (it isn't better for most uses, just hogging where accuracy is a very low priority, I use them, but have all my machines setup to easily swap between contact wheels and stones because nothing beats a stone for accuracy, and versatility). Basically any good, not-totally clapped out SG is going to do what you need, and you can find one almost anywhere in the US with a little patience, for $500-1500. I personally wouldn't pay over $800-1000 unless it's a ball bearing, high precision, auto feed, very well kept machine, with accessories.


That Harig is a decent machine, but it's really a glorified bench model, just like the ubiquitous boyar schultz's, which sits on a heavy looking, but mostly sheet metal base. Still, it's every bit good enough, and should be much better than a grizzly unless someone had a grudge against it. The price however, is outrageous. It would have to be a high end swiss machine in near new condition for almost any SG to be worth that, in the 6x12 or 6x18 size class.


Newer machines only offer peace of mind. They have no proven track record, and are notorious for not being supported 10 years down the road, when your warranty is well expired, and the cost cutting measures start to rear their ugly head. If you find a machine that's 20-30 years old, well taken care of, you probably can still get some parts for it if it's domestic (although the prices will make you cringe), but more importantly, it's more likely to be good for another 20-30 years, if you treat it well. My workhorse, is 60 years old, and still going as strong as the day I got her, almost 10 years ago. (Landis 618 Hydraulic) I paid $800 for her, and I've never paid more for another, although I would, as above, for the right machine.
Thank you for taking the time and writing all of this, it certainly helps. I think I will take your advice and continue my search for an older machine in the price range you mentioned.
 
my SG, I paid $650 -$800, I can't exactly recall...in Los Angeles where you will find plenty of these, perhaps less so available in your area.
walker ceramax chuck is new off CL for $250.

It's not the prettiest and I should take it apart and clean it but it works fine for me.
As Javan said, I wouldn't be paying more than $1,000...

x1rqf8E.jpg
 
my SG, I paid $650 -$800, I can't exactly recall...in Los Angeles where you will find plenty of these, perhaps less so available in your area.
walker ceramax chuck is new off CL for $250.

It's not the prettiest and I should take it apart and clean it but it works fine for me.
As Javan said, I wouldn't be paying more than $1,000...

x1rqf8E.jpg

Right by the door, I see. Only thing keeping me from getting a SG is the manpower to move one lol.
 
Right by the door, I see. Only thing keeping me from getting a SG is the manpower to move one lol.

I contacted a company that moves safes and vending machines. Zero regrets, those guys are used to handling heavy stuff. No reason to blow your back out trying to manhandle an 800 + lb machine.
 
Right by the door, I see. Only thing keeping me from getting a SG is the manpower to move one lol.
The Bridgeport is in the other corner against the wall and was moved there by forklift

The surface grinder base and top comes apart and can be moved by an engine hoist with wheels
 
Well they are certainly extremely valuable in knife making, and especially folders. I just recently got a harig 618 automatic and I think I'm going to love it but still have a few things to finish fixing up on it (leveling and grinding the chuck, changing hydraulic fluid, etc). Eventually though I really want the tormach automatic, but that will be down the road :)
 
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