survival doing

G

goshawk

Joined
Dec 27, 1998
Messages
297
16 posts on aa flashlights!!nothing wrong with that but I don't see very many posts on
actual experience at being out there and doing it. Maybe this is the wrong forum for
that. Maybe I'm being too critical? I may
catch the rath of the moderators but just wanted to vent.


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http://www.imt.net/~goshawk
Don't walk in tradition just because it feels good!!!!!
Romans 10:9,10
Hebrews 4:12-16
Psalm 91

 
Good point!

I've sure learned a lot from all sorts of stuff here though.

Being a picky list making sceptical person - I then go out and try the stuff to see how it works out..

Jimbo

 
Well, since no one else has answered yet, let me be the one to break the news to you. Most of the guys you are looking for - those out there every day doing something probably don't have 56K dialup, DSL, or an ISDN line in the woods with them.

The moderators have plenty of hard skills, but the true experts are the folks living somewhere *having* to live survival everyday. Most of these folks have never heard of the internet.

Meantime, you just have to live with what's offered I guess. - Jeff

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Randall's Adventure & Training
jeff@jungletraining.com

 
>>>16 posts on aa flashlights!!nothing wrong with that but I don't see very many posts on
actual experience at being out there and doing it.<<<

Did you have a particular question in mind?
 
I wasn't including the moderators they know
me and the idea that there aren't any people
out there surviving even as a life style wasn't the point. We have several people here on the streets of my town just trying to survive.
I'm trying to stir up some emotion and someone to try stuff not just get on this
forum and find out what GEAR someone else
has and think that if they have the right
stuff they can survive!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

------------------
http://www.imt.net/~goshawk
Don't walk in tradition just because it feels good!!!!!
Romans 10:9,10
Hebrews 4:12-16
Psalm 91

 
I understand your thinking except for the street people. Damn near ALL of the street people I have ever met are there because they're too damned lazy to work for a living and would rather be bums. No sympathy here about their damn survival. Anyone that's not working in this economy just plain and simple doesn't want a job.

The word 'survival skills' encompasses an arena much wider than typical wilderness or outdoor skills, and I think there's a lot more folks than we give credit to that are out there daily practicing some form of 'survival skill,' be it a martial art or self-defense class, a fitness goal, furthering their education, etc.


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Randall's Adventure & Training
jeff@jungletraining.com

 
I think that goshawk has made a very good point here. I was thinking about it while I was out today. I had to conclude that if a person had a knife and firestarter all the rest of the requirements were about skills.

"Stuff" is good - and I said that I'd learned a lot. It's always good to work with good tools - especially if you have picked up some new slants on how to use them.

Sometimes though, stuff gets in the way. By this I mean that one can focus on the tools more than the skills to use them. The name of this forum includes the word skills not the word stuff.
I'm just as guilty as everyone else in that up to now I've focused a lot on "stuff". Maybe it's time to change that. I certainly think that the moderators have done their part. There is just so much to talk about in terms of skills - and I read goshawks post as saying just that.

Jimbo
 
Originally posted by Jimbo:
I had to conclude that if a person had a knife and firestarter all the rest of the requirements were about skills.
Click to expand...

Proper 'skills' will even do away with your knife and firestarter. Fire by friction and stone tools were a way of life for many years.

So your gear list may be a little heavy for a real prmitive skills practicioner.

I don't fault people on wanting proper gear. I do fault people for buying gear they will not use or have with them. I also fault people for allowing the comfort of good gear to take away good common sense practice and hard skills...such as GPS instead of map and compass, get the bic lighter and stove gas instead using the flint and steel, preparing the tinder and kindling, etc. Everytime you turn to the easier route you become less practiced.

Good gear is excellent. I use it a lot, especially when a trip or adventure has an end goal other than wilderness skills. Matter of fact UPS just delivered my latest purchase - A new North Face tent.

I have also practiced, and continue to practice, the hard skills enough to know I can get by without it.


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Randall's Adventure & Training
jeff@jungletraining.com

 
You are absolutely right Jeff and someday even relying on those too much might cause me problems.
That's the trouble with getting old - you get to be too easy on yourself, and too tied up in old habits! I'm trying to work on it! Well all except the age - That sure beats the alternative.
Anyway give me a little time to get my "friction possibles" and skills together -it's been blowing wet snow for a while.

I guess that you agree that goshawk has really brought something good into play here. I sure thank you for your suggestion too. I haven't done any friction firestarting in years! We used to have a lot of fun getting it to work since it's so damp here.
So thanks Jeff - like I said sometimes when you get old you get set in your ways, and it sure is good to be reminded that you don't have to be.

Jimbo
 
Goshawk has a VERY GOOD point! Currently I find myself at a lack of "space" to experiment and hence find myself on the net more. Hopefully all that will change greatly in about 5 months!
smile.gif


But in the meantime, I would like to see us talk more about improvisation!! GREG'S quizzes are some of the BEST example's of 'how to use the net to learn skills' that I've ever seen.

I agree 100% that survival is a matter of mostly LEARNED AND PRACTICED SKILLS! If you don't think and try then you will LOSE!

Let's get after it guys!
biggrin.gif




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Plainsman :)
primitiveguy@hotmail.com

You use what you have on you, then you improvise! :)
 
Jeff:
Just to be picky, Jimbo didn't say "Spyderco and metalmatch" A knife can be stone, and a firestarter could be the bow and drill in the quiver with your arrows.

As far as survival vs. whatever else, many people here have different definitions of survival. There are folks out there who view(ed) survival as having a generator and plenty of gas, or a wood stove to supplement their heat, or topping off their gastank on the 31st. There are folks here who keep 'bug-out' bags. I don't, and while I don't fault them for doing so (I know I could use more survival stuff in my car, especially for the climate I'm in), it's not soemthing I would do. But would choosin the proper flashlight for a bug-out bag not be a survival topic? I have a flint & steel kit in the pocket of my skiing pants, does this mean I shouldn't discuss the best lighter to put in the other one? I can start a fire with both...

I know how I prepare for survival, and most situations I see myself ever being in involve me having the light on my belt. Which light would I want if I was going to depend on it for signalling? Or if I wanted to take it apart and light a fire with it? Which one will work after I go through the ice, and clamber back to shore in the snow? Are these not valid survival topics? Lemme tell you, I may try lighting wet objects in my kitchen, but I will not go out and cut a hole in the slough in my backyard, and see how long I can survive after going in the water, or which of my firestarter work when my fingers are frostbitten.

I guess you were trolling for emotion, and so there was my little nibble...
smile.gif



Stryver
 
I agree - hell, we've already discussed this - that some of these discussions tend to be stuff-oriented rather than knowledge- or skills-oriented. You can lose your stuff; but you can't lose your skills. On the other hand, if you decide you *want* to carry a 2AA flashlight, it sure is helpful to hear about the experience of other people with different models.

My concern is that any discussion about what *real* survival is can quickly degenerate into a pissing contest:

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

"When I go hiking with my Superlite Ultrafine tent, that weighs less than six ounces . . ."

"Tent? Ha! I never use a tent. I sleep under the stars in my sleeping bag."

"Oh yeah? Well, I sleep in just a period-authentic eighteenth-century five-point wool blanket."

"A blanket? What luxury! I sleep while sitting naked in the snow."

"Is that right? Well, I sit naked in the snow and wrap wet sheets around myself."

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

People vary in their circumstances and resources. Some are able to practice firemaking in their backyards on weekends; some are able to take extended trips into the wilderness. Some people are able to go bowhunting right near their homes; some city people are lucky to get away once or twice a year. We are here to share knowledge and experiences. We've been doing a real good job of it so far.

I am eager to learn from Goshawk, as I am eager to learn from everyone else who posts here. There's an old saying: "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing." Hedgehogs and foxes both have much to teach me.
 
I'm not trying to get anyone into a urinating
contest or who's the toughest, meanist, able
to leap tall buildings in two bounds.
I also understand constraints of jobs and
locale and I probably got carried away with
the "not being gone long enough to miss your
mother bringing you a glass of milk."
I also have equipment. AND I'm the guy that
looks at situations and gets out if it doesn't look safe. ok not always.
I also like to see the posts on improvisation
if that's spelled correct.
Arrgggh I have to go will add to this later


------------------
http://www.imt.net/~goshawk
Don't walk in tradition just because it feels good!!!!!
Romans 10:9,10
Hebrews 4:12-16
Psalm 91

 
walks slowly: I don't think that it'll deteriorate into a contest at all - or perhaps not in the way that you think.

I took Jeff's comments as very constructive, and indeed they were. You see I was thinking in terms of my pocket knife and metal match.

It really is easy to get set in your ways. I'm getting back into the survival interests seriously after many years. I find a lot coming back and it's great. So now as I'm driving to the next town I notice things like birch trees and where they are located - and lots more. That's great. I do though think back to what I've done in the past and fix on that for solutions. Sometimes that isn't great - because you limit solutions by not thinking seriously about alternatives, or worse think you could do something like friction firestarting without going through all the practise.
I think that I've got my work cut out to first re-learn the "friction" skills indoors and then try to make them work outside in the middle of a wet snowstorm.

Jimbo
 
Obviously, knowledge and skills are only second in importance to the will to survive.

Equipment comes in last, however, that doesn't mean that it isn't important. Good equipment, combined with the knowledge and skills to use it, can not only increase your capabilities but it may also add to your confidence. This is especially true if you've taken the time and the effort to practice with your equipment and learn its (as well as your own) capabilities.

Sure, some folks will survive with almost nothing but some won't. I was once tasked to fly a search and rescue mission to locate two fisherman who had been missing for a couple of days.

Along with a description of the boat was a list of survival equipment that they carried on board. Their total survival equipment consisted of 2 coconuts and a flashlight.

No one ever saw those two again. It was a very small boat and Guam is a pretty tiny island in the middle of a big ocean.

Maybe a radio and some appropriate signaling devices would have made a difference (along with some common sense).
 
Many good points here, folks...

Some things to remember:

-- As Plainsman said, Greg starts with great scenarios to provoke thoughtful, innovative thinking. Greg and Ron both teach that real survival training is training the MIND not just knowing technical skills. Notice how they keep provoking thought on "how to improvise?"

Have you ever noticed that Ron and Greg don't begin their teaching with materials and skills, but rather with principles, context, and mindset?

Any survival training, whether wilderness or street, begins with this -- if it's quality instruction. You can spend forever trying to remember specific skills, but without understanding the context and when to apply and when NOT to apply, you'll probably die unless dumb luck intervenes. The net or any print context can only convey principles and theory, and sometimes describe skills to a degree. Dirt time takes care of application.

--Second point, this is a public forum, and people of many levels of skill will be here. Some discussions begin based around equipment because people are trying to learn and are beginning from comfort zones and their only knowledge-bases. I applaud them for steeping up to the plate and taking a chance.

It's up to all of us to help each other along -- after all, we are all "greenhorns" in any given area of our lives at any time, so please be patient.

Here's a new challenge to you:
If you see a gear discussion, look at it as you read, and see if anyone in the discussion has an idea of context and use of that equipment, and try working the discussion in the direction of multi-use applications of that equipment -- but only if it's approprite to the particular discussion. Some discussions are gear-based only and rightly so. Or, if you see a thread that is gear-based and are not interested, you have the option of not clicking on that topic...
biggrin.gif


The other challenge:
I ask each of you to please start topics on skills and principles-based survival -- it can be scenarios, your experiences and what you learned, anything. For every gear discussion you see, then balance it with a new discussion on skills.

Please remember though, that equipment discussion is good and warranted in some places, because survival is all relative -- it's a matter of degree.

Thanks to everyone here for their feedback -- everyone had made good points. We're glad to have each and every one of you here.

Peace, and Best Wishes,

Brian.

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Suburbia: Where they tear out the trees, then name streets after them.
 
Brian,, excellent post. It appears that you are student of human behavior and human diversity. It is good to be able to see the cup as half full instead of half empty. Goshawk makes a very good point that all the cool gear in the world can not replace practice and experience. This is true also for knives, guns, martial arts, academia etc. It is easy to become an armchair expert with all the toys but not getting your hands dirty. At first glance though, some of Goshawks comments may appear a bit condescending to some of the more sensitive types. I am sure that they were meant in a constructive way and applaud his candor and straight-forwardness. An open forum has people from many different backgrounds, skill levels, areas of interest etc. and hopefully those with "AA battery" questions/comments will not be discouraged from posting/replying for fear of it being publicly deemed frivoulous or irrelavant. Brians metaphor of "stepping up to the plate" is a good one..I am a relatively new wilderness enthusiast and appreciate all of the tips and techniques I have picked up here from you guys so thanks..Nuff said,,don't want to beat a dead horse (too late) especially since we all seem to be in agreeance. Good thought provoking topic,Goshawk..Rob
 
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