Survival Knife

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burtzolotar

Joined
Oct 15, 2001
Messages
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I've decided that, with all of the hiking that I do, I need a "survival knife". By this I mean that I want to buy a knife that would hold up and be able to do the variety of functions that a knife should do if I were isolated in the wilderness for an extended period. I'm talking about survival and not really combat. Other key factors for me are price and the realization that I need to be carrying the knife (i.e. a reasonable size) or it is of no use at all. Two knives that attract me are the KA-BAR 1461 D2 Impact Spear Point (4-1/2” spear point blade of D2 sheet stock tool steel, heat-treated to 59-60 Rc. 5” contoured natural Micarta handle with lanyard hole. Overall Length 9-1/2”- about $110) and the KA-BAR 1460 Impact Spear Point (3-7/8” spear point blade of 1095 High Carbon steel heat-treated to 56-58 Rc. 4-5/8” contoured black Zytel handle with lanyard hole. Overall length 8-1/2” - about $60). I think that I could reasonably carry a fixed blade in this length range. The prices are also reasonable if these are really "tactical" knives. A Busse might be better but the price is outside of my budget right now.

Could this group give me some input on these two knives for the purpose I have defined? Between these two knives we have different steels (D2 vs. 1095), handle material (Micarta vs. Zytel) and blade length (4 1/2" vs. 3 7/8") and price ($110 vs. $60). The sheaths (ballistic nylon KA-BAR Eagle sheath with a molded blade insert for quiet carry) are the same except for size.
 
Either of those would serve you well. Check out the latest issue of Tactical Knives (not sure what month it is, but has the Becker Combat/Utility 7 on the cover) There is a nice write up on the Ka-Bars by Jeff Randall. He used them for a survival trip in the jungle.
 
I read that article and it turned me on to these knives. What I'm trying to find out is whether I should spend the extra $50 and carry the extra length on the D2 version.
 
Because you stated you want a survival knife not just a utility then go for the longer blade. Generally in survival the longer the better as there are just more things that you can do with them.
However, the greatest reason for not packing a knife is its size and weight. Just ensure you always do take it with you. In the jungle you ought to take a compass, whistle, and machete when venturing out of camp for a :( :( :eek: :D
 
The extra length would be a benefit, also, D2 is a tough semi rust resistant steel.
 
The most cost effective knife to do what you ask isn't going to
cost big bucks because big bucks doesn't always buy a better knife.

I can think of several that cost a little more than a meal at McDonalds......

Ka Bar combat/utlity (oiginal version)
Buck Nighthawk ( one of the best you can't break it knives there is)
Camillus pilot survival ( a real sleeper)

Throw in a large SAK with saw and you've 99% of the bases covered,
If it's money you want spend go ahead but you'll not find better knives.
 
Of the two options you outlined, I would advocate getting the 4-1/2” spear point blade in D2, simply because I like the semi-stainless nature of D2 and because it's the bigger-bladed knife of the two (not because I think it's the best knife or value for your stated purpose). BTW here's some links where you can get the Kabar 1461 for less than $110.
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/shoppingmatrix1/ka-bar.html
http://www.knifestuff.com/kabar/impact/impact.htm
http://www.toptexknives.com/kabartab.htm

Originally posted by burtzolotar
I want to buy a knife that would hold up and be able to do the variety of functions that a knife should do if I were isolated in the wilderness for an extended period. I'm talking about survival and not really combat. Other key factors for me are price and the realization that I need to be carrying the knife (i.e. a reasonable size) or it is of no use at all.
Click to expand...
IMHO a survival knife that is going to be your "do it all, all the time" blade for extended survival needs should be longer than either of the options offered, assuming that by wilderness we're talking about forested area.

Since budget is a consideration, I HIGHLY recommend the Becker Knife & Tool BK7 (the Combat/Utility-7) for under $50, which makes it less than half the price of my choice of the two options stated. It is relatively cheaply priced, has a very efficient blade geometry in a tough steel that has been well heat treated, and has a handle that draws rave reviews for its comfort & durability. You can check out my comments on it (along with knives by Busse, Livesay, and a few others) in a two-part write-up in the Reviews forum here on BFC. For $50 I found the BK7 to be an incredibly strong performer for the price. I realize that its blade is almost double the length of the two Kabars being considered, which will make it less likely to be packed along. But IME that longer length is a requirement in a "do it all" blade, not a luxury. Unfortunately, the one area that the BK7 struck me as being weak was in wood splitting, which is certainly a wilderness survival consideration in my book.

Burtzolotar, I've got a quick question for you. Not trying to be a wise-a$$, but looking for some clarification to keep me focused on the important factors. I wondered what specific functions you had in mind when you mentioned "the variety of functions that a knife should do if I were isolated in the wilderness for an extended period"?? Depending on what functions were intended for the knife to fulfill, my recommendation for the BK7 could be hogwash. Your survival functions may be WAY different from mine and I wouldn't want to give you a bogus recommendation by prematurely drawing wrong conclusions. What do you need the knife to do to keep you alive and, specifically, would the shorter Kabar blades be sufficient to perform all of those activities? Just some food for thought.
 
I'd just like to interject that the spear point might not be your best choice if you're not going to be fighting, or hunting with it. The only advantage to a spear point i can see is in point penetration. Even there, it's not going to be significantly better than a clip, or drop point. Both of these tend to have better tip strength, and are more usefull for skinning, and carving.
Just my spin on it.
 
AS has been pointed out, a true "do it all" knife is going to be in the 7 to 9 inch range, in order to be truly capable of the myriad tasks a "survival knife" may be called to do. On the other hand, the shorter knife IS easier to carry and keep with you at all times, so it's a balancing act all the way.

Of the 2 you mentioned, I'd go with the D2 model, but I think a better option may be available for a slightly lower price. If you want a short blade, look at the Ka-Bar "Shorty". I just got one, and it's a great little knife. It cuts well (not as nicely as a flat gound blade, but well enough nonetheless), and it works with a baton to split wood, or cut larger poles. The swedge is a little rough on your baton, but not too bad.

And while it's not a real chopper with the right technique, it will chop to some extent. If you were looking for a "small" blade that's easy to carry, yet still effective, this might be a good choice. If you carried a wire saw with your knife, you'd be able to do *most* of the things a big knife will do. And I'm also of the opinion that a clip point is a better choice for a survival knife; more belly for skinning is one of the best advantages of a clip point.

You can also get the Shorty with a Kydex sheath so that you can lash a pouch to the sheath for a mini-kit. If you look around the net, you should find one for around $45.00.
 
RokJok,

Why do you think the C/U 7 falls short for wood spliting?

I have used it to split up to 4" rounds and it seemed to work very well.

Thanks
 
The CU/7 has two aspects that make it a poor wood splitter. First off it has a clip point with a swedge which is both a little weak and will tear up a wooden mallet because of the high pressure contacts. Optimally you want a convex tapered point like on the early Busse blades, certainly no swedges or false edges. The other drawback is that the primary grind is high flat, this means it will wedge tightly in wood. Can you split wood with it. Yes. You can split wood with anything. I have done it lots of times with stamped machetes. However the performance is poor compared to something like the A1 which has a primary convex grind, which is exactly what you find on a wood splitting maul to give the least wedging action.

-Cliff
 
I don't know about the rest of the crowd, but the extent of my wood splitting in a "survival" type situation is splitting out kindling. After the initial fire is built I can usually find enough dead wood to sustain the fire, or break larger cuts instead of cutting them. Sure, a swedge will cut into your baton but usually the batons I find get burned along with everything else after the fire is going. What I'm trying to say is I've been able to use just about any knife to split what's required. In fact I use a baton more to cut green saplings than splitting. Again, a swedge gets ragged after working it a little, but the bottom line is there is hardly any difference in the overall efficiency of getting a fire going or getting the shelter poles I need. So, swedge or no swedge has little to do with overall success. Just my opinion and experience.

Jeff
 
Backpacker, thanks for raising the question on wood splitting. My statement re: the BK7 being weak in wood splitting should have probably contained the qualifier "compared to thicker bladed knives".

In the testing I did, the BK7 would split the wood okay. It just didn't do it as efficiently as knives with thicker blade stock like Busses or with fully convex blades like Fallknivens for the reasons that Cliff outlined. The BK7's thinner stock and blade geometry (which make it a fine cutter) worked against it wedging the wood apart as vigorously as the thicker knives tested.

To bring the thread back to the Kabars for a second: A nice feature I just noticed on this picture of the Kabar 1461 D2 blade http://www.knifestuff.com/kabar/impact/ka1461l.jpg is that there is a small flat immediately in front of the guard which could easily be ground out with a Dremel (along with the little notch that's already there) for a choil cutout. Sweet. :)
 
The Busses are certainly my choice for "do everything" knives. If the Combat series are out of budget, try get land the Basic Series. Failing that, I do like the Becker line, though they are not in the Busse catatgory, either in price or performance.

The BK-7 is a great survival knife in its price range. For that matter, so is the chorter yet good chopper "Campanion." If price were truly a consideration and there was no way you could swing a Busse, I would look at the Becker line. The mention of the Buck Nighthawk was not off the mark either as these knives are rugged and provide good value. I am however, a carbon steel guy at heart.

If you could get yourself a Busse.
 
The fact that the baton gets damaged is mainly the symptom. Yes, if you have to do a lot of splitting or baton work in general you will have to switch batons, but that really isn't a huge problem. It depends of course on the type of wood. Fresh soft woods are split really easily, however if you are in a region of dense hardwoods and you are working on pre-fallen and seasoned wood, then the amount of force needed to split the wood can break batons apart before you can split one piece. It starts to get problematic then.

The real problem though isn't actually visible by eye but has to do with how the force of the impact is distributed. When you swing the baton you do a certain amount of work and use up that much energy (a fair bit more actually), and ideally you would want all this work to go into splitting the wood. If the top of the spine is decently thick, then this is nearly true. However if the spine is tapered and has a swedge or worse yet a full false edge, then a lot of the energy will actually go into driving the baton into the top of the knife. This directly means it will take more work to split the wood, same holds for baton work in general.

If you want to see this at a more extreme level try using a knife with a sharpened clip, or a full dual edge. I have a few hundred pieces of small wood to split this weekend (2-4"), I see if I can't get some numbers to make the above less vague.

-Cliff
 
Jeff,

Good observation about having not to split too much wood. I have always felt same....until...

last June in Idaho. Heavy snow and rain, coupled with forest fire burn, made even standing deadwood soaked halfway through -- too wet to keep lit. We ended up having to split all the wood we used, in ored to get at the drier cores. When you're feeling like hypothermia is about to set in, and expending that energy, it takes a toll.

So, now I feel that, in any northern forest climes, a good chopper that is thick enough for splitting is a nice idea!

Best,

Brian.
 
We use to experience the same thing during the latter part of the wet season in the jungle. Learned a trick though that's helped out tremendously from the Amazonian natives: Split enough wood to get a decent coal bed, then put your smaller damp deadwood on top of that...As you know it will only smolder. Take large leafed green vegetation and partially cover the fire. This keeps the heat concentrated and will dry the wood much quicker. Feed the coal bed with your smaller split wood. Although this sounds crazy, it does work and works exceptionally well. The wood will dry twice as fast using this technique. Once your intitial "roaring fire" is going it's all down hill from there. I guess it would be relative to nesting a coal in a semi-damp tinder bundle. Cool trick once practiced. Saves a helluva lot of arm work chopping everything and lung work blowing a fire. Of course there's probably no large ferns or palm trees in Idaho :(
 
Yeah I know about that one but never tried yet...

No, there was only that standing dead, all the foliage burned off...
 
Not to get too far off topic but another way to dry wood is to use a heat reflector built from wet wood. Split enough wood to get a nice hot coal bed and in a couple hours switch out the now dry wood on the reflector for more wet. Just keep cycling it in and out throughout the need for dry wood.And of course it also helps keep your heat in a more concentrated area too requiring less fuel overall:) As to knife selection I too would recomend the BK&T 7in blade. For the price I don't think the BK&T knives can be beat.
 
Originally posted by Bill Siegle
I too would recomend the BK&T 7in blade. For the price I don't think the BK&T knives can be beat.
Click to expand...

Amen to that statement!
 
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