Survival or Successful?

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Jul 28, 2011
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When choosing equipment (including tools and knives), do you focus on having a successful outing or survival? And do you see these as being different?

I want to preface this post by saying that so long as you aren't hurting other people (or damaging the land so others can't enjoy it later), people should be free to carry whatever makes them happiest when they are traveling in the backcountry. If that means a laptop and solar charger, a 7" Ka-Bar or a mini Leatherman, that's fine by me. I'm not question what makes anybody happy.

I come to backcountry travel by way of backpacking, climbing and ski touring. My reading list includes authors like Yvon Chouinard, Reinhold Messner, Ray Jardine, Colin Fletcher, NOLS, Chris Townsend, Ned Gillette, Alan Bard and Harvey Manning (I really just dated myself) to name a few.

One of the big debates in the climbing world is the amount of equipment to be carried. NOLS and others favor an "expeditionary" approach in which more gear is carried. When this is applied to climbing high mountains, this approach is sometimes called "siege tactics" as gear is ferried up to progressively camps. Chouinard, Messner and Jardine are/were advocates of ultra-light "alpine" tactics in which minimal gear is carried.

Chouinard is noted that if you carry (the weight of) bivy gear, then (the weight of the bivy gear will slow you down and) you will end up using the bivy gear. One of his famous quotes is "Speed is safety."

Adding to this, the "leave no trace" ethic is firmly accepted as a doctrine for backcountry travel in backpacking and climbing circles. This means that shelter and cooking fuel are carried in and back out and that harvesting wood is discouraged as being unsustainable (with respect to the local backcountry in question). Obviously, "leave no trace" just means "divert your impact to the factory making your tent" but I digress.

When you combine a "light is right" climbing ideal with a "leave no trace" reliance on tents and stoves for shelter and cooking, it entirely possible to have a successful backcountry trip carrying nothing but keychain type knife like a Victorinox Classic or Leatherman Micra. This is done routinely by long distance hikers on the Appalachian and Pacific Crest Trails, for example.

If I haven't tossed down the gantlet explicitly enough, I'll come right out and ask that advocates of big knives (for batoning wood) or hatchets to justify the extra weight as "good weight".

And before people start spinning up "what if" scenarios about the need to light a fire if separated from their camp stove or pack, I would have to ask if you apply similar thinking to your first aid kit.

After many decades of backcountry trips including several winter trips a year on average, I've never once needed to start a camp fire for the health/well-being of the party. I've dealt with 2 winter falls in rivers (by party members, not me) and have relied many times on the ability to melt snow for water in the winter. I've also had to apply minor first aid (including an evacuation) and have been forced to spend extra nights in the woods due to high water conditions. I mention this only to say that my questions are based in some amount of experience.

So, how about it. When packing up your gear, do you think in terms of returning safely (success) in terms of survival (what if planning)? Where do you draw the line?
 
When I camp I carry camping gear. Not much survival gear at all. Why do I need to carry an emergency tarp if I have a tent? So in this instance, I carry what I know I'm going to use and being minimalist by nature, it's just enough usually.

When I dayhike I carry survival gear. However I really just consider my survival gear a mini/lightweight version of my camping gear. Am I going to use this stuff? More than likely no. Do I think that I'm going to die without it if something bad happens? No. However I'd rather wait for rescue in front of a fire with a hot chocolate in my hand then endure a night of shivering curled up under a tree. For me the little bit they weigh is worth it. That being said I've been known to go on dayhikes in the summer without this stuff and just carry a water bottle, fire starter, and belt knife.

As to the knives I carry, there's two main reasons I carry them;
1)Survival gear. They're the last ditch backup. If my pack washes down river then I have my knives. I could whole up in a log for the night but like my survival gear,they're lightweight and are barely noticed on a hike.
2)Number 2 is the main reason I carry knives and that is because they're a luxury item to me. I'm a knife knut and I get a lot of enjoyment out of whittling. Heck I get a lot of enjoyment out of just looking at them. Some people carry books, others write in journals, and others shoot photos. For me, whittling and other bushcrafty things is my entertainment.
 
I tend to use gear based on self reliance as opposed to resupply. I also buy with long term durability in mind rather than optimal light weight and ease of carry.

If someone came to me and said we are going on a Nessmuk style trip where we don't have a destination or time frame and don't know when we will see civilization again i'm going to pack my sleeping bag as opposed to a wool blanket because if offers me true rest and recovery unlike the heavy blanket which needs help with staying warm. I'm going to take my Emberlit over a gas cannister stove due to fear of the fuel running out making it obsolete. I'm taking a good durable pair of boots to keep my feet warm and dry instead of a pair of light weight trail shoes that might fall apart. I'm taking a gun. I'd grab my hawk over the axe as I can cover ground pretty easy with it unlike the heavy axe which becomes a burden rather quickly. I trust my big knife and find it worth the weight. Everything is a trade off and would come down to the individual.
 
I carry a combination of survival and comfort items. I look at Pack weight and adjust from there depending on the location and season. I will usually include a large blade small blade and multitool. alcohol stove and stainless cup, water filter system, hammock and tarp. First aid kit, compass, tinder, storm matches, and sleeping bag. I find the hooded grabber blanket to be indispensable for weight and dry warmth. I usually carry several light multiuse items paracord, duct tape, contractor bags etc. When I go backpacking I try to keep the weight reasonably light but i am not in a race either....
 
Depends a lot on what you're actually doing, imo. I worked for NOLS for 12 years, in 4 different countries. I think it is an excellent program for introducing people who may not come from a background of much outdoor experience to good outdoor skills foundations, solid decision-making and it teaches people a lot about working together for common goals. The latter two are vastly under-rated skills, imo - whether you're talking about extended outdoor trips, or life in general.

That said, what typically gets carried on NOLS courses is not what I would usually choose to carry on a personal trip. Part of this comes down to the fact that they are an institution, which means a lot more "what ifs" are considered in today's litigious society and this affects gear choices. Some of it also comes down to deciding to carry gear that is really durable, over carrying the lightest weight options. Programs like NOLS generally need gear that will last for multiple, month-long courses.

At a certain point, however, it started to hit me that such programs (and NOLS is certainly not alone in this) teach people to rely far too much on their gear. It literally becomes a life support system, beyond which there is not much, if any, recourse taught. And many things I consider basic, absolutely fundamental outdoor skills (such as building a fire or learning to properly sharpen a knife), are not taught at all, and have been lost by a new generation of "outdoorspeople" who have come to consider a vast array of gear to be essential for going outdoors. But in fairness that's not really the focus of a NOLS course, and I'm not saying that I wish NOLS was a "survival" type school instead. Just saying that personally, I would love to see more of a return to the basics. If you don't know how to sharpen a knife, for example, then I don't really care that much if you've climbed Everest - there are some basic gaps in your outdoor resume, in my admittedly biased opinion.

Not sure if that really gets to your point or not, but those are some of my thoughts on the subject.
 
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I'm in the same line of thought as Smithhammer. When i'm leading hikes i tend to carry what is now my EDC (1st aide kit, field knife and firestarting/signalling kit + a significant amount of photography gear) plus adequate food/water, backpacking stove and something to cook in (depending on the duration of the hike). If it's a climbing trip, again depending on the scope/duration of the climb, i include my 1st aide kit, field knife and fire-starting/signalling kit (and occasionally a camera).

Mountaineering/technical climbing trips have a different focus and are much more goal oriented and honestly, most mountaineering folks have a high level of physical fitness which can help them out of bad situations (though obviously not always).

Personally, i am in a quandary as to my application of leave no trace ethics. Sometimes it's a decision already made for me (as in alpine environments in national and state parks) and other times i just chuck the whole notion. Sometimes it's just a matter of me not feeling like doing a fire or making a shelter since i bring a tent and don't need to make one. However, i do enjoy going out for a day in the wilderness making a small fire and brewing up - and leave no trace is ignored.
 
Other than one of my trips to and through a good old Southern swamp, most of my hikes don't take place in the sort of terrain where 'survival' is going to be an issue. Even hiking/camping in the Smokey Mountains is not likely to stress me, or really test my skill set or gear.

Dang old swamp though, well, thats another story.............
 
I travel light. I try to develop my knowledge base and skill set to the point where I depend as little on gear as possible.
Not because I have Ramboesque visions of bugging out or spearing a boar with a bowie knife if I get lost, but simply because i love the skills, and the knowledge. I think the classic man vs wild concept is just fantasy, (though its a fun one) nature is not against anyone it is merely indifferent. So no I do not plan for survival. that does not mean that I do not plan for emergencies however.. as a medical professional and a wilderness EMT my first aid kit is something I obsess over. As far as knives go I;ve tried them all..Because I want to survive? Nope.... because I like knives.. Mostly I carry a mora. it;s cheap and light.. it;s easy to sharpen. could I get away with a folder? yep but I hate cleaning food and fish guts and what have you out of a folder.
I will also add in regards to justifying weight.. that I don't really need to justify anything. If i think I'll need a hatchet to keep my butt warm and fed than I'm gonna bring it, and thanks to the man upstairs I;m healthy enough to do so.. good weight bad weight it doesn;t mean that much to me.... if that extra lb is gonna be the thing that tips the scales for me than I don;t bring it... or maybe i should get my butt to the gym more often. but I don;t see the need to try and project any particular rationality onto others.
My buddy nick is an ultralight guy he;s got all manner of 2 oz specialized james bond stuff he likes.. if he likes it he likes it. It all seems a little soulless to me but I'm my own man and so is he..and in reality at the end of the day we can still share a camp together.. and our packs still weigh pretty much the same
 
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Even hiking/camping in the Smokey Mountains is not likely to stress me, or really test my skill set or gear.

Dang old swamp though, well, thats another story.............

I can tell you this about the Smoky Mountains.... I was hiking on the AT there in February 2004 near Thunderhead Mountain, but too far from an "approved" sleeping shelter to get there before dark. I had one of my 4-season tents w/me anyway so hadn't planned on sleeping in one of the shelters (just "at" the site). Anyway, the wind was howling (probably around 40mph and gusting higher) and temps were in the teens which isn't really cold, but with the wind chill it could have been life threatening. I was pleased to have along my full-on winter gear (including a very conservatively rated -20F down sleeping bag). Sipping hot mocha in my tent with the lights of Knoxville, TN in the distance was nice. Without the proper gear, it could have easily been life-threatening.
 
There are not many situations that when I am in the outdoors feel could turn into survival. Survival is a hyped word now a days. Everything I carry is for my comfort in the woods which can easily be used to keep me alive if need be.
 
My backpacking gear is my survival gear. Packing weight can be a very opinionated debate and it really depends on the skill, knowledge of the area and activities planned. If I’m “through-hiking”, I pack less comfort items with the focus keeping weight down to gain more distance. If we’re just backpacking out 6-10 miles to set up a main camp where we will boulder, fish/swim, day-hike, etc, then I’ll add a little more weight for comfort and planned activities.

The majority of our trips don’t rely on fire for protection from the elements; it’s strictly for our campfire enjoyment. I do believe in “leave no trace”, but I don’t consider a small campfire spot as detrimental…and we always use previous campfire areas if available. If we do make a spot for a fire, we keep in small and police it up to where most wouldn’t recognize it. As to collecting firewood, I don’t understand the rationale unless it’s a very delicate, protected environment. The areas we frequent have blown over trees (many blocking the trails). There is often more than can be harvested for a fire and our ecosystem doesn’t suffer from collecting downed and dead wood.

I do prefer to travel as light as I can without compromising my comfort. I’ve spent enough time in the field under harsh conditions…I don’t prefer to continue that for my recreational activities.

Survival is a mindset, not a gear-set...

ROCK6
 
Like what Rock6 already mentioned.

In general I go minimalistic. I only take on the mountaineering trips on glaciers and snow fields some "survival gear", which is a 2 person bivy bag and emergency blanket. If something goes seriously wrong we call in the heli and wait in our bivy bag (European Alps). Hopefully it's not such bad weather then ;)
On any other outdoor activity I just have the gear I intent to use + a rain jacket and a first aid kit (content depending on activity). I'm not taking any 'emergency' bivy gear on day trips nor on multi day hikes from hut to hut. knife; sure either a folder or 4" fixed blade, but that's for general EDC use too like opening letters to preparing lunch. The fixed blade is in case I plan to do some carving.
 
Lighter is better, always. Of course, that can be taken to the extreme (the stories of people cutting the edges off of maps, drilling holes in toothbrushes, doing all cooking with a homemade hobo stove, etc.), but ounces really do matter and add up quickly. Your pack weight is just like a bank account. A dollar here and there add up *quickly*. That said, there is something to say for comfort, too. So it's always a compromise... but lighter is better.
 
I carry gear for both and just like Rock6 said Survival is a mind set not a gear set. I still love to test the gear out in the woods though lol.

Bryan
 
Appreciate your climbing and the skills you have for that endeavor, something I do not have and have always been impressed with.

In the opposite camp than the technical mountain climber in that I carry very little, but use the environment to make myself quite comfortable. A bed with a springy mattress, a makeshift shelter, and a long fire can all be made with axe or saw (or nothing if need be) as an example. My makeshift wool blanket backpack loaded can be an easy carry at under 13 lbs. if I go real light. Bottom line for me is not survival, it is being comfortable. Full disclosure... if time or the fire danger is against me, will absolutely use a sleeping bag.

Master Woodsman – A man is skillful at woodraft just in proportion as he approaches this balance. Knowing the wilderness can be comfortable when a less experienced man would endure hardship. Conversely, if a man endures hardships where a woodsman could be comfortable, it argues not his toughness, but his ignorance or foolishness, which is exactly the case with our blatant friend of the drawing-room reputation. SE White – Camp and Trail 1920 (p. 30)

While I believe LNT has its place in high use and fragile environments such as well used mountain peaks, I would argue it's view could be broader. All those rare earth elements and fossil fuels came from somewhere. And people's poop and plastic bag go in a landfill. LNT leaves a footprint, just somewhere else and no one seems to recognize it. LNT needs to think more globally and not give me grief when I use renewable resources well off-trail in a NF. When I use dead organic material to build a shelter and cook with, and wipe my butt with a rock, I am using less resources than the person with a titanium stove using non-renewable fossil fuels, synthetic this and that, etc....

Great topic and brings to light the folks here come different "angles" and we all have something to share. Peace, Chris
 
Hello, Ive pondered this question alot since seeing this thread and here are my thoughts.
For me I dont plan for survival at all, PSK tin kits, carrying 5 knives and multitudes of other gear in case a survival situation arrises is just not me although it does seem popular with folks on the internet.

As an average joe who hikes, tramps and hunts I just dont think its nessasary providing trips are planned properly. I think the whole survival craze is just an internet thing the chances of being in a hardcore survival situation where your living off the land for an extended period is fantasy unless your a pilot of have a job where you work in isolated places without an EPERB

Ive hunted tramped and hiked with a wide variety of people and alot of them have had decades of experince in the great outdoors whether at their own leisure or as part of a chosen career, the experienced guys all have one thing in common in regards to gear and their general mentality.

Firstly the gear they carry is basic, robust and just works, when packing for a trip they all look at realistic potential worst case senarios. I dont mean getting dropped in the wilderness with a tin kit and going Rambo for a couple of months. What I mean is Ok were going on a day hike, the weather could get bad so Im going to pack some decent warm gear, worst case senario I twist my ankle and may have to stay the night until the wife gets worried so Im going to take a bit of extra food and water, a heatsheet, firekit and poncho.

I try my best to plan for a trip properly by taking the right gear for the conditions, thinking about potential worst case senarios and making sure my plans are known so people know when to panic or if Im going really remote I hire an EPERB for the trip. Once I done the above survival doesnt cross my mind, Im to busy having a good time.
 
Survival
Learning to mountain walk in England
We always had an emergency kit, which was rations, and a plastic bivi bag
The must haves was part of your hiking gear like map, compass, whistle, and flashlight
Clothing and rain grear was worn with a hat glove and socks in your pack

So when ever I went on a trip, I would examine my emergency gear
As an example, snowshoeing for 10 days, then spare mittens would be included, where the loss of mittens would be fatal.

Then the rest is how light or rugged do I want to be
Vs
How much am I willing to carry

And I choose to minimize my gear
To leave room and weight for recreation stuff like musical instruments, books, and painting gear

Knives?
A SAK
A big knife is a pint of gasoline, which is a week's cooking
and minimal effort in cooking
 
Thanks all for the wonderful and thoughtful replies. There is something of a false choice here, I suppose. Success implies survival. To survive a trip implies that the trip was successful, regardless if any other goal was achieved. On the other hand, carrying equipment for every conceivable contingency just doesn't work. Might as well pave a road to the summit and line it with fire stations and Dunkin' Donuts stores.

Several respondents picked up on the tensions created by impact, volume of traffic and leave no trace. Nearly all of my backcountry adventures have been on public lands and nearly all of those have been Federal lands of some sort or another. USFS National Forests and designated Wilderness Areas have been the most heavily frequented by me. Several National Parks and State Parks too. All of these places have been managed either for recreational use or, at the very least, mixed use and as a result, the lands are considered destinations, always with dedicated hiking maps and almost always with several written hiking or climbing guides available. All of this funnels in foot traffic and with traffic, issues of over use.

In stark contrast, the land I hunt on is owned by family members. Private land which is abutted by yet more private land. These are working forests with sugar bushes and wood lots that are actively and regularly logged. The "neighbors" recently cleared out some of their timber.

Vermont Clear Cut by Pinnah, on Flickr

I tend to think of harvesting locally found saplings, brush and wood differently in working woods (with the owners permission, obviously) than in public lands. With the latter, I'm aware that there is a reasonable chance that you and your kids may want to come in after me and my kids have been there and you may want to have as much of the experience of visiting an untrammeled place as is possible.

Thanks again for the great discussion. It's been a very interesting read.
 
Thanks all for the wonderful and thoughtful replies. There is something of a false choice here, I suppose. Success implies survival. To survive a trip implies that the trip was successful, regardless if any other goal was achieved. On the other hand, carrying equipment for every conceivable contingency just doesn't work. Might as well pave a road to the summit and line it with fire stations and Dunkin' Donuts stores.

Several respondents picked up on the tensions created by impact, volume of traffic and leave no trace. Nearly all of my backcountry adventures have been on public lands and nearly all of those have been Federal lands of some sort or another. USFS National Forests and designated Wilderness Areas have been the most heavily frequented by me. Several National Parks and State Parks too. All of these places have been managed either for recreational use or, at the very least, mixed use and as a result, the lands are considered destinations, always with dedicated hiking maps and almost always with several written hiking or climbing guides available. All of this funnels in foot traffic and with traffic, issues of over use.

In stark contrast, the land I hunt on is owned by family members. Private land which is abutted by yet more private land. These are working forests with sugar bushes and wood lots that are actively and regularly logged. The "neighbors" recently cleared out some of their timber.

Vermont Clear Cut by Pinnah, on Flickr

I tend to think of harvesting locally found saplings, brush and wood differently in working woods (with the owners permission, obviously) than in public lands. With the latter, I'm aware that there is a reasonable chance that you and your kids may want to come in after me and my kids have been there and you may want to have as much of the experience of visiting an untrammeled place as is possible.

Thanks again for the great discussion. It's been a very interesting read.

I agree. LNT is for heavy traffic areas. A place that sees 100's if not 1000's of people a day would be dessimated pretty quick if everyone wanted to cut trees and do bushcraft. I think this is why backpackers are a little aggressive about it. They're on trails that see a lot of use. Most don't bushwack in a logging area. We have a lot of federally owned land that gets logged. I have no problem building a fire or doing other bushcrafty things in these areas. The area is going to be logged anyway and the biodiversity is already shot to hell from previous logging.
 
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