Survival Skill of a different sort......

Brian Andrews

Brian Andrews

Joined
Dec 11, 2006
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1,659
All right guys….I need some advice on outdoor skills of a different sort. It might even be a survival skill :) Working with kids!

My oldes son joined cub scouts as a first grader. I was pretty appalled with the whole thing, even the “camping” portion, and we ended up taking the next year off from scouts. During that time, despite my disgust for how the pack was being run, I figured I would step out completely and be an “active parent” and do anything that was asked, but not get invovled (to keep my sanity). As long as my son was having fun, and continued to have fun, we would participate.
Coming back this year, it seems worse than before, especially the camping. The good part is that it is not necessarily my problem. The bad part is that they have asked me to take over the role of campout coordinator.

I have not committed yet, but I have given everyone the warning that it is not going to be run the way it is currently being run. They say it is my baby, do what I want, and how I want. With that in mind, I have a lot of thoughts on the way it should be run, and the activities that should be done. But, I am looking for input from anyone who has experience running these types of camps and activities with kids that can give me some additional ideas. I will give a few of my thoughts as starter, and so you can see where I am coming from:

Organization

In the past, a list of activities have been planned, nobody has been really responsible for anything. People are more than willing to chip in, but this results in nobody being prepared to cover a topic in any good amount of detail, and the “coordinator” thinking he has to be at EVERY acitivity. Meaning everything takes longer than it should, isn’t covered well, and we never get to a lot of activities because it is too much for one person to be at everything.
My plan is to have a schedule, and assign an adult leader as the “lead” for that activitiy. Have them know well enough in advance so that they can prepare, organize and bring what they need to camp. No more free for all.

Because of prep time for each activity, it is not concevieable that every adult leader is capable of attending every activity. But, this will keep the kids from being bored and playing football, or some other silly thing that they can do at home.

Chores

The kids are broken up by grade (Tiger, wold, bear, etc). I want each den to be assigned to helping with all the activites. Cabin clean up, food prep, cooking, clean up from dinner, etc.

My biggest worry is lopsided turn-out among the den’s, and I may just have to break them up in a different manner after camp out registration.

Activities

This is a big one. I have lots of ideas for activities, and encourage more ideas. The other leaders continually remind me to “remember the age of the kids.” Which I personally think is a bunch of crap in one way, but not so much in another way. Let me explain further.

I think the kids gets sheltered a bit much. Not allowed to tend the fire, not allowed to play with fire, etc. By the time the kids reach Webolo I, they are able to legally hunt and carry a shotgun in Michigan. You are telling me that this same kid shouldn’t be allowed to play with fire under adult supervision? I am afraid that if we baby these kids too much, we are going to loose the ones with any ability at all.

At the same time, it is a bit of a culture shock for me when I see how sheltered (from the outdoors) these kids are. Stuff that I take for granted, and my kids have been exposed and also take for granted, is not easy to just introduce. Here is an example.

At the last campout, I brought some green wood for crafting (what kid doesn’t like using his knife?) As I was carving, a crowd of kids wanted to carve to (and it is allowed for those with their whittling chip). Then, the knives start coming out. Most looked like they had been carving on cinder blocks. I had some sharpening provisions with me, but I was not at all prepared for this. There is no possible way I could carve with the knives the kids were using, I don’t know how they could have been expected to. My son is just now earning his whittling chip, so I did not know what level of instruction they had been given. I was told that they had all been taught about sharpening in their knife education. I guess it was a half hour session. I ended up having to abandon my carving exercise, even though my son (without his whittling chip) would have been able to do it fine. I don’t believe it is an age thing, there are other factors working against me there.

So yeah, if I take this, I have my work cut out for me. I am looking for any input, however crazy that can be useful. Also, a little persuasion that I should do this (or not) probably wouldn’t hurt either.

Take care,
Brian
 
I'm a cub leader north of the border. It's something I really enjoy. I figured I could bitch and moan about things or do something about it. Show the kids what real leadership looks like, clearly some of that has been missing, and they will respond. Another plus is your son gets to have the coolest dad amongst his peers.

Remember the holy trinity of camping with kids: food, fire and knives.

Mark.
 
Two words: Lesson Plans

Make the people who are covering a topic supply you a lesson plan with learning objectives and everything.

Make them teach YOU the class before you allow them to teach the kids the class.

Yeah they will hate you but it is one way to ensure quality control.

-Stan
 
stanley_white said:
Two words: Lesson Plans

Make the people who are covering a topic supply you a lesson plan with learning objectives and everything.

Make them teach YOU the class before you allow them to teach the kids the class.

Yeah they will hate you but it is one way to ensure quality control.

-Stan
Click to expand...

Probably some of the best advice I've ever heard on this sort of thing. Too often in my gf's son's troop I'd see "instructors " get up and be completely lost and us as parents having no idea how to help or where they we're trying to go with their "lesson".
 
Go for it without reservation. I have spent a number of years as a scout leader, and I have encountered some of the same sheltered scouts. But with proper instruction they will learn quickly, and then enjoy their time outdoors much more.

Scouting should do several things for the boys. Most importantly, they should learn leadership skills. They should learn life skills in many different areas, not just outdoors. They should learn how to plan and carry out meaningful activities. And they should learn that the most gain comes from stretching themselves beyond their comfort zone.

To illustrate the last point, a few years ago I took some 11-year old scouts on a hike. It was not a very difficult hike, about two miles one way, about 1000' elevation gain. One of the scouts was very sheltered and soft, both physically and emotionally. After only a short distance, he found the physical exertion beyond his comfort zone, and it wasn't long before he was reduced to tears. I encouraged him to continue, and he did. When we reached our destination - a nice big pool on a creek, with a waterfall at the end:
SouthFork112008079.jpg


He was amazed at the place, he had never seen anything like it in his very limited experience. We tied a rope off on a boulder, and I took the other end across some rocks to the other bank and tied off on a tree. The scouts then used the rope to hang onto for balance as they crossed the rocks. He was thrilled with it. On the way back to the cars, he told me that he wanted to go back. And here is the key - don't let those AHA! moments go to waste. I explained to him that many things in life are like that - it may seem hard and miserable at first, but the reward at the end can make it all worth the effort. You can find life lessons like that everywhere.
 
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i'm the senior patrol leader of my boyscout troop. its sad for me to see how sheltered the kids are, i can definitely see you losing the kids that aren't sheltered. i think you will be great for them. if you're up for the responsibility i say you should definitely do it
 
man this is one of the coolest things you can do like [lam] said you have to take them out of there comfort zone put them in groups of 3 with one over baring loud mouth in each one as funny as it sounds its like one of those old 80s teamwork movies and you will most likely hear things you would beat your kids ass for the goal is team work and finding leaders when you teach them things as far as knife handling fort making knot tying and so on give them a test latter on and find out with leader was listening and who wasnt and promote them as strange as it seams kids want to learn and they will look up to you and respect you the rest of your life and you will know you gave them something in return
 
Thanks guys for the input and suggestions.

I have been talking to others locally that have had a long time invovlement in scouts, and they have helped me put a different perspective on it.

I am super anal about the way stuff gets taught, and I am even more anal when it comes to kids. Looking at it that way, as a perfectionist, I was afraid of how much work and how hard it would be to make the event everything I want it to be. Talking with others, the suggestion has been to think of like this: If you at least do one thing better than it has been, isn't it worth it? Next time work on two things, etc.

With that perspective, I think I am going to go ahead and do it.

If anyone still has any input, it would be great to hear.

Thanks,
B
 
A little bit of Neuro Linguistic Programming goes a long way. Finding out the kids preferred learning modes and splitting up the groups that way can be very rewarding, particularly when kids "discover" useful talents in people they're more prone to bully. This can often happen when a group activity relies on cooperation and a mix of skills and learning modes to gain a positive outcome. Also recognising how to keep conversations on an adult to adult basis can help a lot with teaching the kids responsibility
 
It sounds like you are on the right track and your enthusiasm is great. The only problem is that you need to make sure your teaching fits into the guidelines of scouting for cub scouts and the training Scouting provides will help you understand that. Boy scouts is where they start doing more 'real' camping and where a lot of the more serious stuff is integrated and justifiably so. Remember that some of them may still have separation anxiety about being out overnight away from family ...that is why parents frequently are recommended to go with their cub on overnights. If you are disgusted with the rules that are set forth you are welcome to push the boundaries...as long as you understand that the reason for the level of camping as it is is for a reason- someone was hurt or traumatized by something and as a result, the rules changed.

Patrol method and having the cubs actually help with the planning is excellent and encouraged by all aspects of the scouting program. And don't worry, there are many who are frustrated with the 'lifer' scouting attitude where you must do it as they say or you are totally wrong and that is not scouting! It should be as the scouts deem vital not as the parents do. If you truly follow the scouting program you should be advising the scouts on the things they want to learn and do all the while getting the requirements done. It is that simple. The goal is to create leadership ability from the young men to be. Good luck..

(from a 30 yr scouter)
 
Brian, I hope you go for it. Some people identify BSA with camping/outdoor activities etc only. At the cub level it really is more family/game/activity thing. I think you will see that the other aspects of scouting really of more use in developing a young boy than "wood carving". As long as your son is having fun, give it a try and you will be hooked too. That said, like all volenteer groups, the quality of "instructors" varies widely. Like my spelling. Having the ability to give more than just an "intro" to knife care and use will be good for some of the boys later on as we all know. Hang in there and bring your iron stomach, if you thought carving was bad wait until you try to teach cooking!
 
Thanks all for the advice.

sharpguytoo said:
Some people identify BSA with camping/outdoor activities etc only. At the cub level it really is more family/game/activity thing.
Click to expand...

I totally understand what you are saying. But, you also have to remember that there are Den Leaders, Pack Leaders, Committee Chairs, Acitivity coordinators, etc, etc. I am being asked for the very specific role of "Camp Coordinator."

The way I see it, it will be the joint responsbility of the dens and the packs to cover the whole spectrum of what cubs are supposed to be. But, for me specifically, my part is to make sure they get the absolute most out of camp as possible. If the particular cub is not into camping, they don't go (and many won't). But, I want to make sure that they ones that do go, and do want to go are not playing their DS in the cabin :)
 
stanley_white said:
Make them teach YOU the class before you allow them to teach the kids the class.
Click to expand...

I can't think of any better advice than this. I do something similar in my job when I pass off teaching sessions to someone else. Sometimes, I come up with the lesson plan, but the intended teacher still has to go thru it for me so we know everyone is on the same page. With Scouts, I could see something similar working well.

Also, you may have to start back a Square 1 with some of the kids, especially RE: their knife habits. I remember my Totin Chip was earned by one night of carving a piece of soap. Nothing was taught about sharpening, really. Just how to not stab yourself or someone else.
 
I joined Scouting from cub-age. Love it and I'm still a member of my scout group. Have been a cub and scout leader for 10 years, but currently not active as leader due to time restrictions. It's hard to describe, but every time it gave me so much satisfaction and energy boost to see the joy, enthusiasm and personal development of the kids. 9 out of the 10 years I was team captain, and most of the time our team was running better organized than the other teams in our scout group. Just make sure you know the strength/weakness of your other leaders and your team runs like a well oiled machine. If your team is not running smoothly, the kids will "feel" it and things will be more difficult.

During our normal weekly activities, we had always one/two person responsible for the program. After the activity we evaluated it and discussed the program of next week.
For a camp out we made a complete schedule. Every leader was responsible for several activities in the schedule. During the evenings we evaluated the day and discussed the program of the next day. Make sure that you plan some free time in the program as well, they need that too.

If I can be of help, just let me know.

Enjoy!
 
My dad or "Akela" before he passed said one of the best things he did was take a leadership role in our local beaver and cubscouts for all three of us boys as they were being very poorly run at that time. My dad grew up on a farm trapping/hunting/fishing and quickly became so well known with the higher ups in Scouting that they asked him to run scout leader training weekends every year to eager but unskilled adults that wanted to be involved. He was also a level III first aid responder. They would come away with enough basic campcraft, woodcraft and first aid to give the kids some real experience.

Do it, does not have to be perfect and the memories will golden down the road. Nothing but wondering and regret later if you don't.

My grandfather on my non-outdoors side of the family also got involved and showed slides and films for the troops once a month and continued for 22 years after us boys were gone. He was the audio/visual equipment repairman for the catholic school board and public libraries of saskatchewan. We called him "Running Water" because of the films. He passed away tending his strawberries at home at 87, he was scheduled to show scouts a film that thursday and was supposed to show slides at an retirement home that weekend where he was the 4th oldest person there.... as a volunteer. Sharp as a tack until the stroke took him.

I look forward to our first child (married 2yrs) and getting involved myself.

Great thread guys, lots of memories.
 
I spent some time as a Scout Leader and I think us adults had just as much fun as the kids.

The advice the outgoing Leader gave me was "remember that kids just want to have fun".

Your energy and enthusiasm and passion is what will turn "walking in the rain and mud while carrying heavy loads and sleeping in leaky tenst being bitten by insects" into a cool outdoor adventure. :-)

I am of the opinion that every kid should be given a pocket knife at age 8. If they cut themselves then good - it will teach them to respect tools. I see a camping trip as a place to allow the kids the chance to do these possibly dangerous things within a safety blanket. Sure, they might get a blister from a hot coal in the fire but they won't get horribly burnt. That blister will teach them a heck of a lot more than not being allowed to touch a fire at all.

My biggest problem as a leader was parent treating it as a babysitting service. So, thanks for stepping up.
 
Brian,
I was a scout master for 30 years. I fully understand the problems of parents, obnoxious adult leaders, non-outdoors boys, boys of huge varience in interests and skills, and many more things than you can imagin. Now that I have been retired for 10 years I have had the opertunity to interact with some of my boys who are now adults and have kids in scouting. (My oldest scouts just turned 60!). You have the opertunity to greatly influence their lives. You may find yourself with boys who have no father figure and no opertunity for any outdoor experience at all. I own one of your knives and from the skill and attention paid to detail I know what type of scout leader you would be. Do your son and the other boys a favior and be the camp director they need. Thanks for your service to the boys in advance.
Ron Athay
 
Back when my son was in Cub Scouts, each scout was assigned a project of their choosing.

He decided on knot tying and we planned an instruction with each scout tying their own knots with instruction. We also had made displays with the common knots.

It was like we had hung the moon. Even the other fathers were enamored with learning to tie the knots and several of them came up to us and told us how much they enjoyed that meeting. I guess they were tired of food pyramids, crafts, and other things that our leader always seemed to repeat over and over again.

The only thing the kids liked more than the knot tying was when I was cutting sections of rope to hand out with my large Case stockman CV in Bonestag. None of the other fathers had a knife to cut with so I took care of that for everyone. Lots of "ooohs" and "ahhhs".

We live in a medium sized city and it is filled with engineering types. Types more likely to carry a slide rule than a pocket knife. My son eventually became bored with scouting due to the leadership. I have been trying to get him to consider going back now that he is Boy Scout age. I have been told that the men that run that section are always hiking, camping, and doing other activities that would appeal to a young man.

So far, no luck though.
 
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