Survival/Woods knife

V

Virg

Joined
Jul 26, 2000
Messages
47
Greetings, all. I'm kicking around the idea of a new knife, and found myself looking at Randall Made. So my question is two-fold: crossguards and sawteeth.
I've read that 'good' woods knives shouldn't use a double hilt because it gets in the way. Seems logical, but I've never owned a single quillion hilt, so I can't say what I'd prefer. My Buck has a crossguard, and I've never thought much about it. Does anyone out there have a preference, or care about that feature? Also, is a sawtooth feature useful in a smallish knife, or just a waste? I'm looking at Randall's Model 15 Airman vs. the Model 5 Camp & Trail knife. For that kind of money, I want to know exactly which features I want!
Thanks

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V.
 
I think it really comes down to preference.

There are advantages and disadvantages, but it is mostly about what you want.

Cross guards can get in the way of utility work by interfering with a choked up grip. But they also add a great deal or safety in a thrust.

Saw teeth can create a weakness that will lead to a knife breaking under lower loads than a knife of similar cross-section and geometry without saw teeth.

Personally, I like neither, and choose knives that are without those features, but there are those I respect that like those very features.

Hope I have helped.

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Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye, Cd'A ID, USA mdpoff@hotmail.com

Talonite Resource Page, nearly exhaustive!!

Fire Page, metal match sources and index of information.

"Many are blinded by name and reputation, few see the truth" Lao Tzu
 
Thanks for your input, Marion, on what seems to be a non-issue among most knife owners. I guess it's a tough decision for me since the models 5 & 15 are otherwise quite similar; the Airman has a wider tang, a sharpened top edge and a full crossguard. The question would be whether the crossguard is a liability, and is it worth taking to get the other features. What I ought to do, I suppose, is buy an SRK or Fallkniven and see how I like the other type of guard; it'd be a good investment in getting the Randall I want, I think. Thanks.
 
Double guards and sawteeth are stylistic features, IMO. A decent single guard will keep your fingers from sliding up on the edge. More importantly, a knife is much more versatile if you can choke up on it, as Marion points out. Most work entails precise slicing and cutting, not chopping or stabbing. Randalls have excellent choils precisely to enable this.

Sawteeth were originally designed for pilot knives, to cut through thin aircraft metal in the event of a crash. They are virtually useless on wood. Chris Reeve Knives claims that the sawback on its Aviator knife is designed for use on many materials, without excelling in any one medium. Probably best to use a knife as a knife, and get a saw if you need one. The nice Fiskars/Gerber folding saw can be had for under $15, w/excellent exchangeable blades for wood and bone. All for an extra 8 oz. For the best woodcutting esp. in very thick diameters, and in a lighter, more compact package, get a Pocket Chainsaw for $20.

I’ve had the opportunity to handle a few Randalls and have used a Trapper – great balance and design. But I recall finding the single guard a bit too long, actually – extends below the plane/line of the edge, IIRC. Also, keep in mind that most Randalls are fully a 1/4" thick (some are 3/16").

Then there’s the collector’s price tag, and wait. But it’s still hard to go wrong with a Randall.

My $0.02 –

Glen
 
I love Randall's to death, and have had about 30 over the years. For a woods/survival knife I would recommend the Model #25-6 Trapper over the Model 5 and especially the 15. The 15 is a great combat style knife but the sharpened top edge is not necessary in a woods environment. The #5 is a little light for a survival knife -- it is the Model #1 blade without the top edge sharpened, and without the little cut out on top of the blade just in front of the hilt. The #25-6 is a good hefty blade, comes with a great designer handle, and a nearly flat grind.

The saw teeth on Randall's were designed to cut aluminum to allow a pilot to self rescue. They have little utility on wood. I carry a cheap Gerber folding saw (about 4 ounces) that is a lot better wood saw than any knife's sawteeth.

Hope this helps -- Bruce Woodbury
 
I agree with (almost) everything Storyville said.

Buy a folding saw and skip the unoptimized sawteeth on knife. I sold all my sawtooth knives and have two folding saws instead.

Sharpened top edge is for self defense, not for utilitarian purposes. So if your knife will see utility work, about the only thing you'll cut with sharpened top edge is yourself...eventually.

I'd pick the Model 5 over 15 just because of the guard.

From there:

I would add that the rather longish choil on the bigger Randall's is not a particularly useful design feature. On longer blades, especially those without the top guard, a choil area that is rounded and smooth and the size and shape of your index finger can be useful for choking up to do more delicate work than you usually would with a big knife. Randall wastes too much space on their big knives with the choil, and it isn't radiused or rounded, and so I find the design needs work. Just my opinion.

Any knife 5" or less and I don't think you need the choil to choke up. 6" knives are a close call.

The Randall designs are classic, but they have been improved upon over the years... from steel, to choil, to handle shape, to blade profiles (depending on your use/purpose).

I think the Fallkniven pieces, although admittedly a bit different design than what you get from Randall, are a much better buy for a straight using knife, and for the same price you can buy a 4" drop point and a 6" clip point belt knife.

But the Randall IS a semi-custom/semi-production knife, and you can spec out what you want on the knife in terms of handle shape and material. I just think the price and the wait for a custom Randall knife isn't worth it when I can have a better design for the same or a bit higher price and 1/2 the wait from a custom maker.

Randall uses 440B for their stainless blades. They forge these to shape, but that makes very little difference, as the heat treat makes or breaks the steel performance, not whether it was forged or done via stock removal. 440C beats 440B for most purposes short of very vigorous chopping. ATS-34 beats 440C for edge holding. BG-42 may be one small notch better than ATS-34 for edge holding and overall balance. So for me personally, 440B is best suited for big long blades used for heavy duty chopping. It would make a very average blade for edge holding, depending on what's included in the average. Some would argue "below average" for edge holding. 440B should be reasonably tough for a very stainless blade.

Randall uses O1 for their carbon blades. This is a pretty good carbon steel if you are willing to babysit the blade for rust prevention.

I've been tempted to buy a Randall several times. I may, someday. Meanwhile, there are so many super-talented custom makers who can fine tune a design per my own personal preferences (e.g. "Randall 5 with these changes"), I just can't see why I'd buy a Randall, any way I look at it (with the simple exception of an old Randall that I bought cheap with an eye for appreciation and collectability, but not to use).

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rdangerer@home.com



[This message has been edited by rdangerer (edited 07-28-2000).]
 
As a "survival" knife, I would prefer one with a single guard (instead of crossguard) and without sawteeth.
One of my so-called (literally) survival blades has sawteeth that actually worked decently but I would rather buy a non-sawback knife nex time.
I do not know much about Randall's to give an intelligent opinion on them.
Good luck and let us know what you decide.

HM
 
My opinions (as if anyone cared!), are:
1. Forget sawteeth (useless). If you want serrations, then get them on a folder (for rope, etc.). You want a great small saw, buy a SAK Rucksack.
2. Forget double guards (useless).
3. Forget Randalls. For the money you can get better. Their waiting list is way too long, too. However if you are gung-ho on getting a Randall, I'd suggest either a Model 25 or a Model 26. Both have single guards, no saw teeth, and drop point blades. Go w/ carbon steel, and keep it oiled.
4. Other companies and makers I'd suggest are: Bob Dozier, Allen Blade, Busse Combat, Dave Beck, Idaho Knife Works, the list goes on and on...
 
Thanks for the input, everyone. I think that above all else, I need to not buy a Randall; at least not now. W/a two year wait and my current indecision, the knife I want won't be the knife I ordered! :-0
That Fallkniven (or SRK) is looking mighty good about now, although the Busse has caught my eye too. Does SAK have a website?
 
Yeah, I'm dead set on a fixed blade; I've got a Swiss Army already. Whatever happened to the fixed-bladed SERE's by Al Mar? They were more $ than I could devote to a knife when they came out, but now . . .
 
In deference to rdangerer, there seems to be a bucket load of misinformation available about Randall's. Part of this is because they only publish their catalogs about every three to ten years, although they have updated recently. ...and sometimes they don't even put their latest info in their catalogs. It seems the best and latest information comes from the quarterly publication coming from the Randall Knife Society run by Rhett Stidham (they have a web site -- www.randallknifesociety.com). Those of us who are members get shop information updates quarterly. In doing so, Randall has told us that many, perhaps all, Model 10's and smaller 1/8" knives are now made of ATS-34 and that some larger knives --Model 14's, I believe are made of 440C so they are updating their steel.

Also, it is true that if you order a Randall from the shop there is a two year waiting period. But the 26 or so Randall dealers have standing orders for knives and only have to provide the details of what they want built two to three months before they are received, so if you want something, call a dealer. If he has not filled up his requirement for that order, he will get you what you want, in usually three to six months!

So if you want a Randall, you can get it almost anyway you want it, and in about six months. If you want something else, buy it.

Bruce Woodbury
 
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