Swing mechanics

[bubbachen]

New to bladeforums here and just thought I might add some insight. I had very little sleep last night as I scoured the posts trying to figure out which HI kuk is right for me! The choice came down to the Chiruwa Ang Khola or the M43. One of the most prominent differences between the two is the handle/grip mechanics. I noticed that the regular M43 does not have that wooden ring in the middle of the handle like the CAK. The more I compared the two kuks, I became more aware of how different the two would move in a hand. I'm an avid racquetball player and have been working on a proper racquetball swing for many years. It's notable that when one grips a racquetball racquet, the hilt should be placed in the palm, not off the palm like a tennis racquet. So I'm actually holding on to the racquet with the second through fourth fingers while my pinky hangs off and below the hilt. In my hand, this produces a pivot point about 1 inch "northwest" from the center of my palm, where a large callous has made a home. The goal of a good racquetball swing is to produce a wrist snap with that pivot point in the palm. I believe that is what the wooden ring in the middle of the handle accomplishes as well, to have a fulcrum at the palm that would produce more power in a full swing. So a full kukri swing may engage the legs, rotate the hips, rotate the shoulder blade and shoulder (glenohumeral joint), extend the elbow, bend the wrist downward (medial deviation), and in the case of a kuk with that wooden hand ring, rotation of the kuk at the palm, perhaps for another 10-20 degrees or so. Do those of you who own kuks with the two different types of handles notice any mechanical difference?

In any case, I think I will try and hold out for a M43 with the older style, smaller handle and with the handle ring or possibly have one made. If I took that to a racquetball court, I'd probably win a lot more games!

 

[DanSmithy]

I use my DuiChirra exactly as you described when heavy chopping.
I've never swung my whole body as you describe as I'm not sure of the outcome!
The knuk is not a racquet...and if you happen to miss target or misplace a hit of such force may have ugly consequences. Especially when you efectively keeping it with only 4 fingers for the butt.
I usually lift my arm and guide the blade to target. A fewer, precise and slow chops work better for me than many violent but misplaced hits.

I'm sure others will jump in with more info.

Oh and, Welcome to the forum!

 

[7rip13a]

Very interesting... I personally (and honestly) cannot really tell? But I'm almost certain my snapping technique is not up to scratch either. Sounds like you have quite a bit of knowledge of biomechanics, will certainly be interested in hearing more in relation to khukuri use.

Welcome to the HI forum, and BFC in general.

 

[Ascalon]

New to bladeforums here and just thought I might add some insight. I had very little sleep last night as I scoured the posts trying to figure out which HI kuk is right for me! The choice came down to the Chiruwa Ang Khola or the M43. One of the most prominent differences between the two is the handle/grip mechanics. I noticed that the regular M43 does not have that wooden ring in the middle of the handle like the CAK. The more I compared the two kuks, I became more aware of how different the two would move in a hand. I'm an avid racquetball player and have been working on a proper racquetball swing for many years. It's notable that when one grips a racquetball racquet, the hilt should be placed in the palm, not off the palm like a tennis racquet. So I'm actually holding on to the racquet with the second through fourth fingers while my pinky hangs off and below the hilt. In my hand, this produces a pivot point about 1 inch "northwest" from the center of my palm, where a large callous has made a home. The goal of a good racquetball swing is to produce a wrist snap with that pivot point in the palm. I believe that is what the wooden ring in the middle of the handle accomplishes as well, to have a fulcrum at the palm that would produce more power in a full swing. So a full kukri swing may engage the legs, rotate the hips, rotate the shoulder blade and shoulder (glenohumeral joint), extend the elbow, bend the wrist downward (medial deviation), and in the case of a kuk with that wooden hand ring, rotation of the kuk at the palm, perhaps for another 10-20 degrees or so. Do those of you who own kuks with the two different types of handles notice any mechanical difference?

In any case, I think I will try and hold out for a M43 with the older style, smaller handle and with the handle ring or possibly have one made. If I took that to a racquetball court, I'd probably win a lot more games!

Not sure about the hand placement, but I believe what you say about the whole body movement in swinging a kukri is true. This is how i practice swinging my kukri, as it incorporates my martial arts experience with the design of the weapon. You'd probably only use your full body in the swing if using the kurki in combat though, for the reasons Dan described. But using everything from your toes to your fingers in the swing multiplies the power and efficiency of your swing exponentially.

 

[DanSmithy]

All that said...now the only thing you need is a khuk in your hand to test your technique:thumbup:

 

[bubbachen]

Thanks guys. I wasn't planning on taking a full power swing as if swinging a racquet, just commenting on what major joints would be involved. Generating power from the legs, hips and transferring this power to the hands is basically the same in all sports: racquetball, football, golf, baseball, etc. If one generated force from the lower body, there should be more muscle energy and dexterity available for control at the arms...?

Just a note, right after I finished posting, I saw the 9/2 offer from Yangdu; I immediately emailed her using the knowledge I gained from reading Warty's "How to Shark your Deals" post, and guess what? I got it! I didn't expect to at all...only been looking at kuks for two weeks, and at HI kuks since last night. I'm guessing the 17 in. bonecutter "chose" me. Thanks to everyone for the great information!

 

[Steely_Gunz]

Welcome

The weird thing about khuks is that they are weird things:foot: Every khuk handles differently, and I'm not just talking about styles. You could have 10 15" Ang Kholas made by 10 different kamis and every one of them would strike the target a little differently.

I would say that the real difference between an AK and an M-43 is in how they impact the target. The AK (generally) is straighter and hits with a more broad blow on the sweet spot causing it to chop deeply. Due to the straighter nature, having the ring will help lock your hand from forward progression and getting potentially cut.

The M-43 (generally) is more curved. It tends to drive the point forward first. You still make contact with the sweet spot, but the tip clears or is driven into the area first. This is one of the reasons I think that the M-43 (based on a WWII era pattern) is more martial than the AK. It makes a devastating and deep slash. It's more sabretooth shaped in nature.

Good luck. You'll find what you are looking for. Also, know that I too have spent many a night in a fitful unrest to figure out what my next khuks or HI product should be

Welcome!

 

[Ascalon]

I am also curious about how to hold a kukri though, as well as how the hand/wrist should move during a swing. Are you supposed to hold it with your index finger closer to the guard/blade, or should the hand be positioned down the handle with the pinkie over the expanding but of the handle? Holding the kukri further up the handle, there isn't much wrist snapping motion to be had.

 

[DanSmithy]

Congrats on your first 17" Bonnie!:thumbup:
This is some serious powerfull stuff.
Please do post after using it...there's been a lot of talk about the swinging/chopping technique and some people still can't get it right.
So a man with your knowledge may just be "the one" to nail it or come up with something new.

 

[Karda]

A must read, from the link library:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=677524&highlight=sharpening

 

[DanSmithy]

I am also curious about how to hold a kukri though, as well as how the hand/wrist should move during a swing. Are you supposed to hold it with your index finger closer to the guard/blade, or should the hand be positioned down the handle with the pinkie over the expanding but of the handle? Holding the kukri further up the handle, there isn't much wrist snapping motion to be had.

CPL had the technique explained somewhere before...
This is how I do it and I'm purely talking "camp" use not SelfDef.
For "fine" work I choke the blade. Point finger closest to the "cho".

For light chop / slice - hand over the full hadle. My hand grip is 1" less than the handle lenght so moving it more forward or backward depends on how much mass you need in front of the knife. Backward - more mass in front - more powerfull hit.

For heavy chopping - pinky behind the butt (some people use 3 finger only on the handle but not me) almost at the end of the arm swing I "flick" my wrist like you do with a stick. This gives even more momentum to the front heavy blade and voila.

I also let the khuk lay on my lap horizontaly (blade away) and this way sharpen sticks etc. by draging them backwards under the blade.
Also, sometimes, I let the hadle loose on the table and keep the blade top above the belly for some really fine chopping action.

Word of CAUTION: Some khuk designs (notably the more curved ones) will tend to swing away on impact (slip) if you keep the handle the "normal" way. I've seen some scary "side moves" as the handle twists in your palm. Keeping it for the oval butt couteracts this force nicely.

Like with any tool practice makes perfect.

Edit: Karda has the CPL link right... as usuall before me

 

[Ascalon]

CPL had the technique explained somewhere before...
This is how I do it and I'm purely talking "camp" use not SelfDef.
For "fine" work I choke the blade. Point finger closest to the "cho".

For light chop / slice - hand over the full hadle. My hand grip is 1" less than the handle lenght so moving it more forward or backward depends on how much mass you need in front of the knife. Backward - more mass in front - more powerfull hit.

For heavy chopping - pinky behind the butt (some people use 3 finger only on the handle but not me) almost at the end of the arm swing I "flick" my wrist like you do with a stick. This gives even more momentum to the front heavy blade and voila.

I also let the khuk lay on my lap horizontaly (blade away) and this way sharpen sticks etc. by draging them backwards under the blade.
Also, sometimes, I let the hadle loose on the table and keep the blade top above the belly for some really fine chopping action.

Word of CAUTION: Some khuk designs (notably the more curved ones) will tend to swing away on impact (slip) if you keep the handle the "normal" way. I've seen some scary "side moves" as the handle twists in your palm. Keeping it for the oval butt couteracts this force nicely.

Like with any tool practice makes perfect.

Edit: Karda has the CPL link right... as usuall before me

The oval butt on mine has rather sharp points that dig into the palm when the handle is held in a low position. I'll have to modify it myself to be able to use it that way.

 

[DanSmithy]

The oval butt on mine has rather sharp points that dig into the palm when the handle is held in a low position. I'll have to modify it myself to be able to use it that way.

That's exactly what I did. Just go slowly and check often!
I don't mind customizing my tools

 

[oldschool45]

I've tried the 3 fingers and thumb technique I don't think you loose a whole lot of safety or grip strength by removing the pinky. However I think you run a fair chance of spraining the tendons in your hand with a bad hit. I am still learning the hits and letting my body learn what works best for all involved.

Ascalon, I have rounded/soothed the pommel on all of my Khukuri's , use a fine file, Emory board and or sandpaper and go slow. I have learned that I do not like to use gloves with my Khuk's I loose a good bit of control when using the gloves.

 

[HighDesertWalker]

New to bladeforums here and just thought I might add some insight. I had very little sleep last night as I scoured the posts trying to figure out which HI kuk is right for me! The choice came down to the Chiruwa Ang Khola or the M43. One of the most prominent differences between the two is the handle/grip mechanics. I noticed that the regular M43 does not have that wooden ring in the middle of the handle like the CAK. The more I compared the two kuks, I became more aware of how different the two would move in a hand. I'm an avid racquetball player and have been working on a proper racquetball swing for many years. It's notable that when one grips a racquetball racquet, the hilt should be placed in the palm, not off the palm like a tennis racquet. So I'm actually holding on to the racquet with the second through fourth fingers while my pinky hangs off and below the hilt. In my hand, this produces a pivot point about 1 inch "northwest" from the center of my palm, where a large callous has made a home. The goal of a good racquetball swing is to produce a wrist snap with that pivot point in the palm. I believe that is what the wooden ring in the middle of the handle accomplishes as well, to have a fulcrum at the palm that would produce more power in a full swing. So a full kukri swing may engage the legs, rotate the hips, rotate the shoulder blade and shoulder (glenohumeral joint), extend the elbow, bend the wrist downward (medial deviation), and in the case of a kuk with that wooden hand ring, rotation of the kuk at the palm, perhaps for another 10-20 degrees or so. Do those of you who own kuks with the two different types of handles notice any mechanical difference?

In any case, I think I will try and hold out for a M43 with the older style, smaller handle and with the handle ring or possibly have one made. If I took that to a racquetball court, I'd probably win a lot more games!

I play racquetball (love it) and own two M43s that I'm very fond of as well. So you might say we have a little in common.

My racquetball and khukri grips both differ from yours. When using a racquett I use my thumb and index finger for control while gripping the bottom of the handle with fingers 2, 3 and 4. The little finger grips the racquett just above the small swell at the very bottom of the handle. Power comes from snapping the wrist at the point of grip.

My Bura M43 has a small, smooth grip with two pins that fits my thumb and four finger hold perfectly. The grip is entirely intuitive. I just pick up the M43 and all my fingers know exactly what to do. Also, there is no tendency whatsoever for the fairly pointed oval butt cap to dig into the skin of my hand at the heel, palm or fingers. This M43 is my favorite tool/weapon bar none.

However, I also like many of the khuks with more traditionally shaped handles, but one must employ a different grip. It took me quite a while to learn that, for most traditional khuks, it works best to place the first three fingers above the prominent ring in the handle and the pinky below it. In this configuration the ring in the handle lies between the third and fourth fingers. The advantage is that no matter what direction I am swinging the khuk (say any of the eight angles of a cutting swing or attack) there is no tendency for the two points on the oval butt cap to dig into the skin of my chopping hand. Yet I have excellent control of the blade with my grip relatively close to the bolster.

Works for me.

 

[bubbachen]

Bill, great info on the M43's. I'm sure I'll be watching for that model to pop up in the near future, one my wife gets more used to the sight of me running around the backyard with my new Ganga Ram/Bonecutter. She gave me "the look" when I tried to explain how I was able to "shark" one after staying up all night reading about kuks. By the way, I used to use the same racquetball grip you do but have switched to the new hilt grip about one year ago. I find that it gives me much more of a crack and I believe another 20-30% more speed on the ball, although my lower body rotation has to be perfect. It's taken me the full year to develop the same amount of control I had with the whole hand grip, but I think it was worth it.

Bill, your description of where you would hold a traditional kuk handle is exactly what I was talking about. The wood ring would be situation between the third and fourth fingers, where I hold the hilt of my racquetball racquet. The whole racquet pivots there, and my pinky actually curves under the hilt to support it from the bottom. I imagine that's how I will end up holding the kuk, but who knows.

Regarding my initial post, no one should take me too seriously because I am an absolute novice and have never held a kukri. Maybe I'll have something more worthwhile to say after a few months of use. I plan on using it like a draw knife to carve out walking sticks/staves and possibly begin bowmaking. I also smoke a lot of beef brisket and pork butt and will see how the bonecutter functions as a meat trimmer. Thanks to everyone for all the input and welcomes.

Li

 

[Cpl Punishment]

Here's how I chop:

The ring goes between my ring and pinky finger. I grip the handle tight with my index, middle finger, and thumb, and very loosely with my ring and pinky. I raise the kukri, and let it rock back in my hand. My wrist is flexed all the way back when I start the chop.

As I swing, I progressively tighten my grip and rotate my wrist forward. Imagine someone using a whip. When their wrist is all the way forward, and grip is tight, they reverse their swing to crack the whip, right? Well, just when your grip is fully tight, and your wrist is almost all the way forward, is when you want to make contact.

And you're right, the more of your body you get into the swing the more power you have. But be careful, I about impaled myself on the sharp stump of what used to be a 4" pine sapling when I first got my kukri and gave it an all-out swing. There's more to the story, but I've posted it several times, it shouldn't be hard to find.

 

[HighDesertWalker]

Bill, great info on the M43's. I'm sure I'll be watching for that model to pop up in the near future, one my wife gets more used to the sight of me running around the backyard with my new Ganga Ram/Bonecutter. She gave me "the look" when I tried to explain how I was able to "shark" one after staying up all night reading about kuks. By the way, I used to use the same racquetball grip you do but have switched to the new hilt grip about one year ago. I find that it gives me much more of a crack and I believe another 20-30% more speed on the ball, although my lower body rotation has to be perfect. It's taken me the full year to develop the same amount of control I had with the whole hand grip, but I think it was worth it.


Li

I tried the racquet grip you suggested and can readily imagine that it would give you much more power once you master the control issue. I might give it a try sometime. Thanks.