Swiss made vs. Swiss assembled

Ravenn · May 29, 2003

The watch threads have been interesting, and educational, thanx to all.

I've been surfing the links provided by different indivudials and am curious. Alot of watches say "Swiss made" and have a Quartz movement ( Victorianox for example)Are they in fact Swiss made, movement and all, or are the simply "assembled" from Japanese Movements.? I own a Vic for field use , and a 13 Y/o Seiko (two tone) for work/dress. Both have served me well in all circumstances.

Regards
Ravenn

Lenny · May 29, 2003

For a watchmaker to apply the coveted "Swiss Made" on their watch, Swiss law requires that a certain % of the makeup of the watch originate in Switzerland.
Sorry, but I don't know what this percentage is.
Try TimeZone.
Lenny

fishbulb · May 29, 2003

The Swiss (ETA in particular) do indeed make quartz movements.

For a watch to be labeled "Swiss" the majority of the parts have to originate from within Switzerland, and they all must be assembled there. The label "Swiss Movement" is allowed an a watch that has a Swiss movement but is cased up elsewhere, usually in Asia.

You can find more details here.

It is important that people understand that there is really nothing that special about Switzerland that makes their watches any better than the rest of the world.

It seems to be a very nice country and I'd like to check it out some day, but there is not some magic aura in the air that makes watches assembled there superior to ones from Japan or Russia or Germany or anywhere else.

Ravenn · May 30, 2003

Thank you for the responses. I've been very pleased with the service of both my watches.
Am I led to believe Quartz movements are somewhat more durable in a ED watch than automatics.?

UnknownVT · May 30, 2003

Originally posted by fishbulb
It is important that people understand that there is really nothing that special about Switzerland that makes their watches any better than the rest of the world.

Not so.

At one time

during the mechanical watch era -
Switzerland did indeed make (much) better watches than the rest of the world.

Since the advent of quartz watches things have changed.

However even though Seiko and Citizen do make world class watches - Rollex and Omega do manage to still keep their fine reputations for workmanship (and prices).

fishbulb · May 30, 2003

Originally posted by UnknownVT
Not so.

At one time during the mechanical watch era -
Switzerland did indeed make (much) better watches than the rest of the world.

Since the advent of quartz watches things have changed.

However even though Seiko and Citizen do make world class watches - Rollex and Omega do manage to still keep their fine reputations for workmanship (and prices).

Reputation and price are no indicator of quality. In many cases the idea of a "Swiss watch" being superior is primarily a matter of marketing and luxury appeal.

There are nations besides Switzerland that manufacture mechanical watches. Even without quartz technology they are comparable to the Swiss brands and are usually cost significantly less.

Seiko has a Japan-only subsidiary known as Grand Seiko that produces mechanical watches that can compete on every level (including price) with Rolex and Omega.

UnknownVT · May 30, 2003

Originally posted by fishbulb
Seiko has a Japan-only subsidiary known as Grand Seiko that produces mechanical watches that can compete on every level (including price) with Rolex and Omega.

be very grateful if you can please tell us when Grand Seiko watches started to come on the market?

Thanks

fishbulb · May 30, 2003

Originally posted by UnknownVT
be very grateful if you can please tell us when Grand Seiko watches started to come on the market?

Thanks

I believe that the Grand Seiko line first came on the market in August of 1960.

Also, prior to World War Two there were American watch manufacturers such as Hamilton, Elgin, Waltham,and Ball that were making some of the best mechanical watches that the industry has ever seen.

The movement of a pre-war Hamilton is one of the finest and most beautiful machines in the world; certainly the equal of any comparable Swiss product and superior to virtually anything being made today.

It's interesting to think what these companies might have become if they had not had to retool to make military equipment for the war. This threw off their production enough that they never really recovered and were unable to compete with the Swiss, who were able to manufacture watches throughout the war.

tortoise · May 31, 2003

fishbulb,

While we're picking your brain (I love this place)...

What is the real deal regarding ETA and Omega et al? As I follow these watch threads, I think I'm seeing that ETA makes everyone's movements these days, except Rolex and Seiko. Is that right?

If so, what does that mean in terms of what you get with a new Omega, etc.? Is it still an "Omega" or has it become just a generic watch bearing that famous logo?

By way of example, I'm thinking of the Porsche 914s that had VW power, and that as a result are considered, by many Porsche purists, not to be "real" Porsches.

Now, this is not to insult either 914 enthusiasts (I know full well the VW/Porsche history and connection) or Omega in particular. I just want to understand the reality of the situation. I'd love a Moon watch, but if the movement in a new Omega (or whatever brand) is an "off the shelf" as it were from ETA, does anything make it special anymore, or would I be buying brand image alone? What do the "watch enthusiasts" think?

Thanks.

fishbulb · May 31, 2003

There are several companies other than Rolex and Seiko that make their own movements. Citizen makes automatic movements under the Miyota name; and (my personal favorite) Poljot manufactures everything but their automatics in-house.

There are a few other makers who use in-house movements in particular models.

Of course, most of the real big-dollar brands (Lange, Patek, AP, etc.) produce their own movements as well.

The issue of ETA movements is generally an ambiguous one, mostly because the watch manufacturers want to maintain the image that their movements are being made one by one by an old Swiss craftsman in a chalet somewhere in the Alps rather than by modern machinery.

There are some brands (TAG, for example) who use basic off the shelf ETA movements in their products, with any modification being limited to an engraved rotor and other cosmetic touches.

There are other brands, such as IWC, who completely gut the ETA movements and replace most of the important parts with better ones of their own manufacture.

Omega falls somewhere in the middle. They do get their basic movements from ETA and modify them, but not as extensively as IWC does. Besides cosmetic improvements, Omega replaces the winding rotor with a proprietary design with a different bearing setup. They also replace the automatic bridge with one of their own design which reduces the movement height and friction. Standard ETA movements use a metal bearing to hold the barrel in place. Omega replaces this with a pair of jewels, which serve to increase accuracy and power reserve.

I'd say thats some pretty significant modification, certianly enough to make the product unique.

Also, since Omega and ETA are sister companies under the Swatch Group you could consider ETA movements to be of Omega manufacture anyway, but that might be pushing it a bit.

UnknownVT · May 31, 2003

Originally posted by fishbulb
I believe that the Grand Seiko line first came on the market in August of 1960.

Also, prior to World War Two there were American watch manufacturers such as Hamilton, Elgin, Waltham,and Ball that were making some of the best mechanical watches that the industry has ever seen.

Thank you for that information.

Certainly don't mean to dispute your obvious expertise,
or the fact that there are watches made that rival the Swiss.

However the reputation (be it marketing or not) of Swiss watch workmanship has been continuous and well deserved(?) - since the introduction of the wristwatch -

Perhaps there were actually periods when the Swiss were the only quality game?
- like shortly after the second world war - as you yourself indicated the US watch companies had been disrupted, and Japan was in disarray?

Lenny · Jun 1, 2003

This is one of the best articles I've read on the subject of companies working on mass purchased movements prior to fitting them into their watches.
Lenny