Sword ID assistance please

[BravoBravo]

Hi,
My brother-in-law brought me a sword to ID and I was hoping someone here could help. I've attached pictures below. Overall length is 37". Blade is 32" long with a blunt edge. Grip is wood, with a brass guard. Scabbard is wood, covered in leather with metal fittings. Markings on blade and handle are identical. Thanks in advance for any help!!

 

[BravoBravo]

Hi!
I noticed no one has replied to my post - is this something really unusual or have I just not provided enough info? I REALLY appreciate you taking the time to help me out or point me in the right direction!

Thanks!!!

 

[horseclover]

Likely more a matter of swords being less discussed on a knife forum. I hadn't responded here or at myArmoury because my wag wouldn't help you much. in reading the thread elsewhere, I will admit my wag would have been pretty close. it could be others simply didn't want to mislead you either.

A good bunch of folk at http://forums.swordforum.com in the A&M room might have more to offer. This in addition to response so far at mA. or, am I just so confused I have know idea where else you might have posted this? I just don't know.

Cheers

GC

 

[Dr. Fell]

Any more information, where he got it?

 

[Andrew Taylor]

To me it looks like an Indian or Pakistan tourist copy of a French cavalry sword. The markings are very suspect in character, are not well executed, and the grinding on the blade near the hilt is bad. The scabbard has only one mounting ring, (a sign of an Indian copy) whereas it should have two VERY sturdy fixings so it didn't shake off when riding a horse at full gallop. With one fixing ring, it would flail about until it snapped off! The wooden handle is also iffy as it should be sharkskin wrapped in twisted silver wire. The pommel still shows the file marks when it was made as does the blade.

A good cavalry sword is nicely balanced, but I bet that is a pig to hold and is REALLY blade heavy.

A nice modern wall hanger, but nothing more than that IMHO.

Sorry.

 

[horseclover]

To me it looks like an Indian or Pakistan tourist copy

Very possibly, or Chinese.

of a French cavalry sword.

I was thinking more likely Russian. While there may be some generic similarity you are seeing, there is no French cavalry pattern I know of that looks like this. There is a Russian pattern that is not far off.

The markings are very suspect in character, are not well executed, and the grinding on the blade near the hilt is bad.

In a thread elsewhere, they are being related as Iranian (iirc) I do agree the general finish is coarse.

The scabbard has only one mounting ring, (a sign of an Indian copy) whereas it should have two VERY sturdy fixings so it didn't shake off when riding a horse at full gallop. With one fixing ring, it would flail about until it snapped off!

I guess that explains why nearly every European country did eventually go to single ring scabbards. The French started converting in the 1850s.

The wooden handle is also iffy as it should be sharkskin wrapped in twisted silver wire. The pommel still shows the file marks when it was made as does the blade.

I suppose I really should at least link the other thread here but I am quite lazy. Russian trooper sabres often had bare wood grips. I can't think of any but the British that were using sharkskin for anything but officer's swords. I could be wrong.

A good cavalry sword is nicely balanced, but I bet that is a pig to hold and is REALLY blade heavy.

Can you provide some specifications on any given cavalry sword? French, if you'd like.

A nice modern wall hanger, but nothing more than that IMHO.

Sorry.

I'd not be quite so quick to judge it without more information but it is not really an appealing form to me either.

Cheers

GC

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=12989

http://www.arms2armor.com/Swords/russswrd.htm

 

[Andrew Taylor]

Very possibly, or Chinese.

I was thinking more likely Russian. While there may be some generic similarity you are seeing, there is no French cavalry pattern I know of that looks like this. There is a Russian pattern that is not far off.

The french, americans and russians used the same patterns. The classic confederate wristbreaker sword is a French/Russian copy.

In a thread elsewhere, they are being related as Iranian (iirc) I do agree the general finish is coarse.

Never seen an Iranian sword. 'Coarse' is an understatement for a piece of equipment you trust your life with.

I guess that explains why nearly every European country did eventually go to single ring scabbards. The French started converting in the 1850s.

In my experience, the only single fixing sword scabbard are for decoration. Working swords have two fixings, but many of my officers swords also have two fixings.

I suppose I really should at least link the other thread here but I am quite lazy. Russian trooper sabres often had bare wood grips. I can't think of any but the British that were using sharkskin for anything but officer's swords. I could be wrong.

Yep, I am British and most of my collection is British. How about the fact that the wood in the hilt looks brand new... because it is.

Can you provide some specifications on any given cavalry sword? French, if you'd like.

I have about 30 swords of all types, what sort of specs would you like?

I'd not be quite so quick to judge it without more information but it is not really an appealing form to me either.

Sometimes you don't need more information, initial impression and gut feeling will suffice. After careful consideration, you make your decision and I did all this... it is a foreign copy.

It seems you have reservations too, and that is because it screams a 'wrong un'.

 

[horseclover]

The french, americans and russians used the same patterns. The classic confederate wristbreaker sword is a French/Russian copy.

It was the French 1822 light cavalry trooper sabre. No Russian about it. The first American contract went to Schnitzler & Kirschbaum, long before the American Civil War and its use by Confederate states.

Never seen an Iranian sword. 'Coarse' is an understatement for a piece of equipment you trust your life with.

The thread linked is of a Russian dragoon sabre apparently contracted for Iran. Worth looking if there is any real interest. Pretty close to this one. The Chinese are now turning out better copies than India.

In my experience, the only single fixing sword scabbard are for decoration. Working swords have two fixings, but many of my officers swords also have two fixings.

Take a closer look at working swords on the continent after the 1850s. You'll see lots of single ring scabbards.

Yep, I am British and most of my collection is British. How about the fact that the wood in the hilt looks brand new... because it is.

Very possibly new. My thought that the British are the only country to use sharkskin on anything but officer's swords is, I guess, not worth reply. As the sword in question is meant to represent (or is) one without a covering, where does sharkskin and twisted silver wire even enter into the equation?

I have about 30 swords of all types, what sort of specs would you like?

What about a favored and well balanced cavalry sword? I have antiques as well and agree they do feel a lot different than reproductions.

Sometimes you don't need more information, initial impression and gut feeling will suffice. After careful consideration, you make your decision and I did all this... it is a foreign copy.

I guess I was responding to what I saw as some pretty abstract rambling. Specifically the bit about single ring scabbards and sharkskin covered grips. It was enough to prompt linking the other thread mentioned in my initial response here and also another site with visual reference of Russian swords of this type.

It seems you have reservations too, and that is because it screams a 'wrong un'.

I have reservations about the thought it looks like a French sword that should have sharkskin, twisted silver wire and a two ring scabbard. Your assertions.

Cheers

GC

 

[Andrew Taylor]

It was the French 1822 light cavalry trooper sabre. No Russian about it. The first American contract went to Schnitzler & Kirschbaum, long before the American Civil War and its use by Confederate states.

I was trying to convery they all use the same pattern.

The thread linked is of a Russian dragoon sabre apparently contracted for Iran. Worth looking if there is any real interest. Pretty close to this one. The Chinese are now turning out better copies than India.

Well the Chinese are the new Pakistan/India/Hong Kong of the past, but India still produce reproduction swords of this type.

Take a closer look at working swords on the continent after the 1850s. You'll see lots of single ring scabbards.

I have none of these, but I will go looking.

Very possibly new. My thought that the British are the only country to use sharkskin on anything but officer's swords is, I guess, not worth reply. As the sword in question is meant to represent (or is) one without a covering, where does sharkskin and twisted silver wire even enter into the equation?

I have a huge German cavalry sword (Gutterman IIRC)with a sharksin grip. It is the longest sword in my collection.

What about a favored and well balanced cavalry sword? I have antiques as well and agree they do feel a lot different than reproductions.

Well we can agree on that then

I guess I was responding to what I saw as some pretty abstract rambling. Specifically the bit about single ring scabbards and sharkskin covered grips. It was enough to prompt linking the other thread mentioned in my initial response here and also another site with visual reference of Russian swords of this type.

I specialise in 'abstract ramblings, but I know what I mean. I did go to your link, you mean 'antique and military?

I have reservations about the thought it looks like a French sword that should have sharkskin, twisted silver wire and a two ring scabbard. Your assertions.

Indeed.

 

[horseclover]

I have a huge German cavalry sword (Gutterman IIRC)with a sharksin grip. It is the longest sword in my collection.

Something like this maybe?
http://www.zietenhusar.de/kurassierdegen.html

Note the single ring scabbard. I'd love to see shared length and width of your huge cavalry sword's blade. Thickness at the guard and then towards the tip. Center of gravity, stuff like that. Pictures would be great, we all love pictures. There are several noted German/Prussian officers that used large swords during the ACW. Is yours from that era or earlier/later? Can you verify the makers name by looking or is this something you've read about it?

I was trying to convery they all use the same pattern.

With innumerable variations. I still know of no French troopers sabres of any type that have sharkskin grips with twisted silver wire. I am trying to find out how you came to the determination that the thread starter looked French and needs a two ring scabbard, and a sharkskin covered grip with twisted silver wire.


Cheers

GC

 

[Andrew Taylor]

Something like this maybe?
http://www.zietenhusar.de/kurassierdegen.html

Nothing remotely like that. Mine also has no scabbard! Mine is bowl hilted with two slots for a wrist strap. I bought it at auction described as a 'German Cavalry Hanger'.

Note the single ring scabbard. I'd love to see shared length and width of your huge cavalry sword's blade. Thickness at the guard and then towards the tip. Center of gravity, stuff like that. Pictures would be great, we all love pictures. There are several noted German/Prussian officers that used large swords during the ACW. Is yours from that era or earlier/later? Can you verify the makers name by looking or is this something you've read about it?

I'll take some pictures on my next day off. The maker's name is stamped on the ricasso. I used to use the sword for dispatching the adolescent seagulls that used to attack my hotel guests. It was ideal as it was so long and also, so well balanced. In your picture, at least that single fixing ring is well made, as opposed to the rather lightweight example in the OP.


With innumerable variations. I still know of no French troopers sabres of any type that have sharkskin grips with twisted silver wire. I am trying to find out how you came to the determination that the thread starter looked French and needs a two ring scabbard, and a sharkskin covered grip with twisted silver wire.


The sword you linked to had a sharkskin grip and was wire bound, albeit german. Shark skin gives a decorative finish, but also gives grip and is durable. The silver wire re-inforces the covering, and indents the sharkskin to the contours of the grip (but I am sure you know this).

 

[horseclover]

Russian cossacks with their m1881 sabres. Note the wood grips and single ring scabbards.

A French mle1822 light cavalry troopers sabre. The date has been scrubbed but the single ring scabbard indicates later than earlier.

Cheers

GC