Sword Identification This sword was on the wall of a bar that went closed down.

T

TheBreeze495

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I'm going to guess that this thing started out life as a Kongsberg saber bayonet (or was at least built by the same manufacturer) and then had that cast handle added later or possibly originally for civilian purpose.

Kongsberg saber bayonet:

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how in hell did you figure that out... out of all the possibilities out there, you knew that one... intense
 
BePrepared said:
how in hell did you figure that out... out of all the possibilities out there, you knew that one... intense
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It's just a guess, one that may be entirely wrong. However, after 15 years of this stuff you remember odd things that you have seen... I always thought that Kongsbert was an odd style (copied from a French bayonet I think) and this blade reminded me of it. A quick google search later and I am reasonably confident on the blade at least, but I've never seen a grip and cross like that... except on repurposed swords for cermonial or decorative civilian use. There you have my line of thought anyway. With that and 75 cents you can get a coke. :)
 
Triton said:
It's just a guess, one that may be entirely wrong. However, after 15 years of this stuff you remember odd things that you have seen... I always thought that Kongsbert was an odd style (copied from a French bayonet I think) and this blade reminded me of it. A quick google search later and I am reasonably confident on the blade at least, but I've never seen a grip and cross like that... except on repurposed swords for cermonial or decorative civilian use. There you have my line of thought anyway. With that and 75 cents you can get a coke. :)
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The Yatagan sabre bayonet was introduced by the French in 1840 and variations of it were eventually adopted by every major military organization including: most of Europe, Both sides of the US civil war, Japan, Turkey and others. The most commonly found is the French 1866 Chassepot bayonet.

n2s
 
not2sharp said:
The Yatagan sabre bayonet was introduced by the French in 1840 and variations of it were eventually adopted by every major military organization including: most of Europe, Both sides of the US civil war, Japan, Turkey and others. The most commonly found is the French 1866 Chassepot bayonet.

n2s
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There we have it, thanks for the additional information. The next time this one comes up I'll have a better guess then this time... :)
 
I am sure this is very obvious, but that being an 18th century blade, i believe the cursory DON'T CLEAN IT should be said by someone
 
BePrepared said:
I am sure this is very obvious, but that being an 18th century blade, i believe the cursory DON'T CLEAN IT should be said by someone
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You mean to say 19th century, I am sure. ;)

There have been a number of these Rice Surprise Party listings surfacing and considering the origin, cleaning it bright would not affect value one way or another. Believe me on this. Lion Gate's price has been near double what it has listed for elsewhere. IN fact, the one I saw in close to pristine untouched condition was going for the price of a novelty sword (which it is).

Cleaning can go in grades of value appreciation or degradation depending on a lot of factors. Telling someone not to touch the condition can be both a blessing or a tragedy. In general, it is not bad advice to leave something alone until experience and knowledge step in. In the case of this sword, it deserves careful cleaning/conservation.

I will not go into depth about my own little shop of horrors but there are conservation articles out there. I believe even burger Bernard has cleaning tips somewhere in his board and tools he uses in his own little bag of tricks.

Cheers

GC
 
horseclover said:
You mean to say 19th century, I am sure. ;)

There have been a number of these Rice Surprise Party listings surfacing and considering the origin, cleaning it bright would not affect value one way or another. Believe me on this. Lion Gate's price has been near double what it has listed for elsewhere. IN fact, the one I saw in close to pristine untouched condition was going for the price of a novelty sword (which it is).

Cleaning can go in grades of value appreciation or degradation depending on a lot of factors. Telling someone not to touch the condition can be both a blessing or a tragedy. In general, it is not bad advice to leave something alone until experience and knowledge step in. In the case of this sword, it deserves careful cleaning/conservation.

I will not go into depth about my own little shop of horrors but there are conservation articles out there. I believe even burger Bernard has cleaning tips somewhere in his board and tools he uses in his own little bag of tricks.

Cheers

GC
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Please note that we are talking about 2 different swords. One is the cadet sword which is the one in the OP, the other is the Rice Party sword, which is the one shown on lionsgate. Notice that the handled are different. Price on any of this stuff is set between buyer and seller at time of sale. While these come up from time to time they are not basic commodities, and guide prices will only serve as a disservice to both buyer and seller.

n2s
 
not2sharp said:
Please note that we are talking about 2 different swords. One is the cadet sword which is the one in the OP, the other is the Rice Party sword, which is the one shown on lionsgate. Notice that the handled are different. Price on any of this stuff is set between buyer and seller at time of sale. While these come up from time to time they are not basic commodities, and guide prices will only serve as a disservice to both buyer and seller.

n2s
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Value to a new buyer is indeed whatever one pays for an item.

Do you have this example shown in a period catalog as a cadet's sword (I do not)? Any primary source that it is a cadet's sword? I will certainly accept my overlooking that it is not a 1492 type hilt but will stand by my own reckoning of general worth for these pieced together leftovers with bayonet blades. the Columbian exposition swords and Jefferson Guard swords I am also familiar with. The hilt shown at the head of the thread is actually listed in books as fraternal (as are a good many Ames 1832 artillery swords) and if you have the Ames catalog, I believe you will also see the hilt listed as theatrical. All that said, I accept overlooking the premise but not the overall market value.

My main point in responding at all is the condition and my responding to the "don't touch it" credo. Let it rust to dust, as far as I'm concerned but that is where it is headed over the eons ;) (especially the scabbard (which could be replaced with a mint bayonet scabbard but won't be original to the piece)

Cheers

GC
 
horseclover said:
My main point in responding at all is the condition and my responding to the "don't touch it" credo.
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Polishing and refinishing the thing is pretty pointless. It will never again be a like-new sword, and if were to be remade then it would lose most of that which makes it an antique. However, wiping it down with simple baby/mineral oil, or a light wipe on-wipe off metal polish (I use Mothers) will help to take care of the dirt and rust and protect what remains of the item. Just make sure to dry the item thoroughly before placing it in the sheath, as either product may destroy what is left of the sheath.

n2s
 
Stopping the active rust does not seem pointless to me.
There have been a number of these Rice Surprise Party listings surfacing and considering the origin, cleaning it bright would not affect value one way or another. Believe me on this. Lion Gate's price has been near double what it has listed for elsewhere. IN fact, the one I saw in close to pristine untouched condition was going for the price of a novelty sword (which it is).
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I believe I was pretty clear, maybe not.

"cleaning it bright would not affect value one way or another."

Cleaning can go in grades of value appreciation or degradation depending on a lot of factors. Telling someone not to touch the condition can be both a blessing or a tragedy. In general, it is not bad advice to leave something alone until experience and knowledge step in. In the case of this sword, it deserves careful cleaning/conservation.
Click to expand...

Again, I am being fairly ambiguous when I wrote that.

Cheers

GC
 
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