Sword Misconceptions...

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Robert Marotz

Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Messages
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Hope the topic title wasn't misleading...I want to hear some folks who are avid students of swords and sword arts give their input.

I'm not talking about the "this sword is the best" for misconceptions, but rather I want to hear common misinterpretations. People who are just sick of hearing incorrect assumptions about the use and design of a weapon.
These can be misconceptions you hear other people tell you, or from the demons of sword marketing, whatever...

To help clarify, I'll provide a peeve of mine.

People who declare Shirasaya mounts to be "concealed" swords or "stick" swords for covert use. This sort of thing pisses me off, and has already led to legal kinks when owning a sword mounted in shirasaya.

Anyone else think of a few?

Shinryû.
 
My favorite peeve/myths

1) the kissaki of a katana is an "armor piercing point."

2) japanese swords were folded hundreds of times (as opposed to having hundreds of layers)

3) euro swords were dull-edged, unbalanced slabs of steel that cannot be wielded with grace

 
A rapier is not a fencing foil or small sword!

not all katanas have geo-tanto tips. I forget what there called but I particularly like the ones where the curve of the blade sweeps all the way to the tip

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~ JerryO ~

Cogito Cogito Ergo Cogito Sum

[This message has been edited by JerryO (edited 12-20-2000).]
 
i think the Japanese katana takes the cake for misconceptions...
I am student of Shindo-Muso-ryu Iaido and i've heard tons of em. My favorite is that katana must be "blooded" each time they are drawn. i have also heard this ascribed to the kukri, barong, etc.
my father while serving in the Korean War said he saw a Turkish soldier go beserk in a medical tent when they tried to take the knife he was wearing out of his sheath to operate; he says the man tried to cut the orderlies to "blood" his blade since it had been unsheathed....'course that coulda been the morphine!
shira-saya are not for concealment; shira are/were used primarily for blades that are on display, testing, and more blades that were unmounted (not "dressed" yet).
 
Yeppers...the simple scabbard was made for the purpose of housing a blade while not in "battle" koshirae, whether it's for collective purpose (some folks only value the blades), or coming back from a polisher, or any other reason. Too weak and too dangerous...but a well done shirasaya can be a thing of beauty in itself to compliment a beautiful blade without distraction like some gaudy mountings do.
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As to the "blooding the blade" thing...I heard that once before, geez. Would prefer not to have a blade covered in rust/corrosion. But that's just me, I dunno about you
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Here's another one!

Scottish claymores were enormous swords that were 6 feet long and 35 lbs! Took an exceptional man (or an average everyday Highland Scot) to heft and wield these monstrosities of nature. HA!
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Shinryû.

Oh hey and JerryO: Forgot to address ya with this the first time but yer probably thinking of shobu zukuri. I prefer shinogi-zukuri (fairly standard) with chu-kissaki (medium-sized point), but a well executed shobu is something to behold too. Also, "geo tanto tip" is a horribly inaccurate term for a sword tip...as the term has been twisted out of shape from the very beginning.

And mwinter: welcome to the forums, nice to see a fello practitioner around.

[This message has been edited by Robert Marotz (edited 12-20-2000).]
 
Robert, thanks. shobu zukuri I will have to remember that especially since I'm having one made
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How's about the old 6' long Zweihander being a knights sword. When it was actually used by german and swiss mercenaries (landnichten sp?) who unhorsed riders with the long blades.



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~ JerryO ~

Cogito Cogito Ergo Cogito Sum
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JerryO:
A rapier is not a fencing foil or small sword!

not all katanas have geo-tanto tips. I forget what there called but I particularly like the ones where the curve of the blade sweeps all the way to the tip

</font>
Click to expand...

If you are talking Cold Steel tanto type tips, NO katana have those. There are very early (pre-Tenth Century) chokuto type swords that have straight blades and chisel points, but these aren't katana. The closest thing to the "American Tanto" point in classical katana is the uncommon kamasu kissaki which has an extremely slight curvature as it transitions from the full-width blade to the point.


Just picking nits!
 
Well I have to day the thick beefy blade myth is one I had for a while.

Consider what we want in tough knives these days, 1/4" stock at least. You would think swords would need to be tougher, and therefore thicker. Seeing European swords that's just 3/16" thick or Arabian swords at 1/8" is quite an eye opener.
 
Mr. Goat Aviator:

Since you know likely as well as I do that swords are not used in similar fashions as knives, their particular use revolves typically around fundmanental training, sometimes being highly orthodox to stress proper usability of a blade.

And JerryO:

If you want any help having a Japanese-style sword made by someone, let me know. Depending on the maker, communication to the maker is most vital to receiving what you want.

Kenshi:

Very accurate...the Jokoto period swords revolving around kiriha zukuri form were the only moderately close shape to what many consider to be a "tanto" tip. It's a pleasure to get more folks into the discussion!

Here's another common misconception folks: that Japanese swords were usually Hollow-ground or chisel-ground. *cracks whip*
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Shinryû.
 
Robert,

Thanks, but I already have ordered one and I think I have a very good maker doing it. The swords in the shobu zukuri style that I mentioned and that you clarified for me. I just couldn't remember what it was called. It will be mostly for show, but It will still have the "go".



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~ JerryO ~

Cogito Cogito Ergo Cogito Sum
 
No problem JerryO...if you need help with anything, please ask here or my email is available if you like.

Shinryû.
 

Myth 1. The rapier blade is too narrow to put an edge on and they were completely dull except for the sharp tip.

Myth 2. Rapiers were never carried in war, and were civilian weapons only. (Far too much historical evidence to the contrary.)

Myth 3. The rapiers we see today were never used in dueling or battle because the edges weren't nicked and everyone "knows" that you don't have time in a fight to worry about blocking with the flat of the blade.

Myth 4. 99% of all Hollywood sword "fight scenes."

Myth 5. It's possible for that "Highlander" guy to lounge about with an exposed blade katana concealed under his trench coat!
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I cut it, and I cut it, and it's STILL too short!
 
Myth 1: The European broadsword is better than the katana because it's more flexible and less likely to chip.

Myth 2: The katana cuts better than the broadsword because it has a sharper edge and a curved blade.

Ummm. . .have you tested an antique broadsword against an antique katana? I don't think so.

 
My fav is that the Katana is ineffective against english plate and chain mail. Ive tested both against them, The katana can cut chain mail, and plate just as well as the english broadsword. Just one thing, the sword uses a whip style cutting technique, its not a hacking weapon like the broadsword. It is much to thick to do a hacking cut. But that extra weight gives it a trememduous cutting tip, like how a whip cuts.
 
Depends on the Kat's construction and shaping...

While I am a stiff prick about what a kat should and should not be, I can understand that there's a huge amount of variation in factors like niku-dori, the height of the shinogi, the various sugata, mihaba, LOTS of different aspects. There are some swords more intended for cutting softer targets, and there are some that are a little less efficient at cutting softer stuff and more able to withstand the stresses of harder targets. However it's still the swordsman's job to use the sword effectively, not the other way around. Different styles were developed with different purposes in mind. While swords CAN be generalized a bit, it really does break down to the individual specimen you're dealing with.

Shinryû.
 
umm... I don't think that _either_ the "english" broadsword or the overestimated katana can cut through plate armour. On what do you base this assertion? Some tests you've performed yourself? If you would be so kind, please enlighten us with the specifications of the blades you used, as well as the armour (guages, material types, etc.).

I've performed the same tests you claim to have performed, I've repeated them several times over the years, and I've come up with just the _opposite_ conclusion you did on every occasion. Simply put, swords can't cut through plate, especially in a combat environment. There were maces, warhammers, and other such things for dealing with a plate-armoured man.
 
thanks for the welcome....
as for the testing of blades, I've seen many live-blades tests; done some as well. in iaido we always used bundled bamboo or straw...from everything i know most of what's taught in iaido was for "civilian" 'dueling' (so no use on armor) ..note the quotes...facing a potential opponent during cha-ya (tea) or a meeting (livens up a boardroom a bit eh?)
the testing of blades must be done with a view to using the blade to its best effect...I know for a firsthand fact that an SCA "fencer" hacking at a piece of mail with a katana will always be outdone by one trained in the classical use of the katana.
I can only assume this holds true across the board, i.e. an English broadsword or rapier in my hands would be about as effective as a piece of pipe. I never been trained in the use of any classical (read past historical USE) style except the Japanese MA's.
just my two cents.
 
Myth 1: A sword is a warhammer, a mace, or an axe
Myth 2: A sword is a knife

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--[----- anton

[This message has been edited by Anton Irmen (edited 01-17-2001).]
 
The sword I used in the testing was a friends, took me awhile to get the specs. Its from the Bugei Trading company. The sword is the Bamboo Koshizae Katana, its has a 29.5 inche blade, 1 1/4" motohaba, a 7/8" torisori, and a kissiki of 1 3/4". DOnt ask me what those mean, I'm still learning japanese. Its steel is Swedish powdered, and cost my friend $1,250.00. He wasnt happy about the scratch on the tip of the sword.

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I can draw any knife I want, I just can't afford to make it, or buy it.....
 
DOTTB:
motohaba - width of the blade at the machi (the notch [edit: "shoulder" would be more accurate] where the habaki is fit)

torii-zori - curvature focused at the center of the sword's overall length (including handle)

kissaki - the tip section of a Japanese sword.

Hope that helps,
Shinryû.

[This message has been edited by Robert Marotz (edited 01-22-2001).]
 
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