Sword style question

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Jan 26, 2000
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I was looking in the Cold Steel catalog and noticed that European and Chinese swords are far less expensive than the Japanese swords. I've noticed the same thing for some other dealers except for Kris Cutlery. Are Japanese swords that much harder to make or is it just that they are more popular?
 
Mainly because people expect more to go into a katana.

A good euro sword is supposed to have a good weight, be balanced, have a comfortable handle and a nice guard.

a katana however is expected to have a traditional diamond wraped handle, with Ray skin underneath the wrap and then a wood core. A end cap and a collar next to the guard. A round guard normally with designs on it. A habaki and a laquered wood scabbard.

A euro sword isnt expected to have all these extras. It can have things like a wraped handle and a custom guard and a wood scabbard, but they all increase the price.
 
it is the fittings that drive up the price. Kris Cutlery (I have half a dozen of their pieces) makes some less traditional fittings, thus reducing the price.

Keith
 
No arguement about the fittings. However I suspect that some of the price is driven by the perceived superiority of the katana as well.
 
Perceived superiority? Most of the people who fall under the newbie impressions of Japanese-style superiority probably can't afford the more expensive swords in the first place. Ironically, at least half the people I know who are willing to pay ~$500 for a "using" sword are convinced of Euro-sword superiority, and a solid amount of those pretend to be victims of an overly katana-glorified world.

There's a lot of possible reasons why katana cost more on the average.

Katana use fittings and handle construction that is more complicated than that of a European or Chinese sword. Materials involved cost money, and carving the tang channel is a little more involved than making a Euro sword handle. Itomaki takes time and patience to do with any degree of comfort or competency.

The decent lacquered saya with proper koiguchi/kojiri/kurigata requires quite a bit of work also.

Heat treat is usually much more risky than it is for your typical European-style blade. Sorry, but it is. Even the best of makers don't always get what they want, and a good number of swords enter the scrap heap just from heat treatment not going as-planned, even if well-executed.

Shaping...most katana have a "zero" edge, opposed to having one simply ground on as a secondary bevel after the sword is made. This is sharpened through polishing rather than a quick passover with a belt grinder. The kissaki is a tricky area to shape and polish in conventional swords (though many modern ones have a false yokote which is really disappointing, and makes for a not-quite-as-wonderful overall blade in my opinion).

Polish: Katana have a relatively high degree of polish if they want to display the hamon reasonably well, and particularly if there are other effects to show in the steel as well. A good polish costs a lot of money, and most European swords don't have that.

Of course, mediocre Japanese style swords don't really cost more than mediocre European-style swords do they? And I also recall seeing a number of high-end European swords [comparable to excellent Japanese-style blades] also selling for thousands of dollars.

I also think more people like the katana as well as Japanese martial arts. The demand is greater, and most people I know who show severe interest in European swords will not fork over too much more money than absolutely necessary to get a "good quality sword." Maybe JSA practitioners are more snooty and wasteful of money--insistant on acquiring the best possible tools to compliment their practice. This in part explains the demand for upper-end Japanese-style blades being greater.

Of course, you were referring to Cold Steel's products, and I understand the katana they offer does not incorporate the heat treat and likely the polish that I mentioned above. Personally I don't feel they're worth anything near MSRP in the first place simply because of their through-hardening nature. That's just me though.

If you look at dealer pricing, you will notice that the price difference will be approximately half what it normally is, which may more accurately reflect the amount of work and materials that go extra into their Japanese-style offerings. Of course, with demand for sub-$1000 high-quality katana being very high (and people wanting alternatives to Hanwei), one can understand that the price is gonna shoot up just a little more than the others.

The sword market is funny though. I want to see more historically accurate (in terms of weight/balance) Chinese swords on the market in the $500 range and also in $1000+ range. However, despite the huge numbers of people using Chinese-style swords, no market seems to exist for high quality stuff. Many people who practice Chinese arts are perfectly happy with the mediocre (and worse) tools they get. Goes to show that the sword market is influenced by a lot of things.

Sorry it's late, I'm tired and incoherent. Time to shut up :D
 
Yeah. How much would it cost for an atrim, with a leather wrapped handle. Mirror polished blade, and a good leather wrapped scabbard?
Sounds like the same price as a mid range kat. :)

Yeah, many practitioners of chinese arts seem to be happy with the low quality wushu or Kungfu type swords. Recently though it seems there has been a growing trend for groups to start paying more attention to balance and quality. So slowly we may see some good Chinese swords out there.

I would mind a larger selection of mid range chinese swords, I rather like the style.
 
Well perhaps, I couldn't say for sure but it seems that when most people post for the first time saying they are looking to buy a sword they are talking about a katana rather then something else. It's only after exposure to other swords and the realization that there are swords from all over the place out there that they sometimes turn their attention to other venues.

Is there a lot more work that goes into your average katana then your average whatever else? Usually although not always. In the case of the Cold Steel swords with the production methods used there is a little more work although I couldn't say whether that alone is what influences the price differential.
 
Personally I think the CS Japanese blades are overly priced, for what they are and are not.
I second Eric in that I would rather lighlty customize an Atrim than buy a CS kat.
Generally there is a bit more specialized work in a Japanese blade which justifies higher price, but in the case of the CS's its not there. They just charge that much cause they know they can.
The superiority thing only happens because a lot of the "euro swords are the best, katanas are crap" guys project it as being that way more than it really is. Robert, you know what Im talking about.
Ive known just as many guys who wanted a broadsword for their first sword, BTW(Im not cornering ya russ, you said you werent sure).

More about the Chinese swords, Robert, one of these days Ill get unlazy and make you a good Jian, would have to do a lot of research though, bud.

Joe Renner
 
Yeah, but a fully custimized atrim, (with handle wrap, scabbard, etc). starts getting into the price of a mid range katana.

Another reason a katana is a bit higher priced is lack of production swords. Its odd, the katana is one of the most famous weapons, and there are so few low and mid (under $1000) range dealers. There is Kris Cutlery, Cold Steel and (the largest) Hanwei. Lets see about euro swords, off the top of my head: Lutel, Del tin, Arms and Armour, Kris cutlery, Armour class, atrim.

It does get tiring, when some of the people who complain about other people who are overzelous about katanas, and then those same people start attacking katanas and claim that the euro sword is supieriour.
 
Czech out this site:

www.chinesearms.com

These are the real deal, folks. I got 2 late ming dynasy (500 year old) spearheads for about 110 USD each. Seller is hiighly reputable and well respected in the community.

Keith
 
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