Sword value question... and it's not a katana

Triton

Triton

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So, an acquaintance of a friend just purchased a sword that belonged to this guy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_A._Logan#Post-war_political_career

The provenance is pretty ironclad (he purchased it from the college that was named after General Logan) and it was Logan's family that bequeathed the sword. Apparently it is an 1850 staff and field officer's sword made by W.H. Horstmann in Philadelphia. It might look something like the one pictured, although this one is made by Ames.

EWSK-1364-Product.jpg


According to the current owner it has some patina and comes complete with sword knot at scabbard all in very good condition.

Does anyone have any particular idea of the value? Coming up with comparables that have provenance has been challenging... although perhaps I am looking in the wrong places. :)
 
Sorry, that's a fake chita.... wait, what!? :eek:
 
In the same condition and with proof and not an aquaintanence of a friend said I'd guess it's at least $8000.
 
Jens Schuetz said:
In the same condition and with proof and not an aquaintanence of a friend said I'd guess it's at least $8000.
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Thanks, basing this on the rough value of the sword? Everything I've seen in auctions says that the sword alone is anywhere from 1000-6000 depending on condition and it might not be too far off to add a couple of thousand for legitimate provenance. Thanks for the estimate.
 
Triton said:
Thanks, basing this on the rough value of the sword? Everything I've seen in auctions says that the sword alone is anywhere from 1000-6000 depending on condition and it might not be too far off to add a couple of thousand for legitimate provenance. Thanks for the estimate.
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True, that's how I was thinking. Basically what a guy interested in swords of that era would pay and added the coolness of having it traceable to a General.
Of course there might be some General Logan enthusiasts out there who'd pay quite a bit more.
I don't see why the university wouldn't give it back to the family.

My grandma gifted some unique ancient family documents to a tiny county museum because she assumed none of us was interested in them. I like museums and am happy if as many people as possible can see the documents and me too could have a look at it. But now they are gone and the museum closed...
 
made by W.H. Horstmann in Philadelphia. It might look something like the one pictured, although this one is made by Ames.
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Sorry but you aren't really offering enough information to base an opinion on.

How much is it worth to the current owner?
How much is it worth to a seller?
How much is it worth to a buyer?
Was it an inscribed presentation sword?
What is the current condition?

Ironclad provenance must include his own personal correspondence describing the sword exactly. Or, an inscription on the sword itself. Lacking either of those, notes from the family showing transfer from generation to generation. When was the sword passed on the the college?

The staff&field swords are more valuable than the foot officer models and despite a Horstmann being more rare, an Ames will bring more money.

A plain jane Horstmann staff&field could easily get more than $1000 if in good nick but $6000 would be a fairy tale price unless it was a fancier inscribed presentation piece with a more colorful history of the recipient. Prices one might see listed are not necessarily what they sell at. Just look at sites such as Civil War Presentations, Arizona Swords, Shiloh Relics etc for premium pricing.

Dick Bezdek (theswordman.com) does appraisals, as do some others and if shopping for an insurance or sales quote, that is the way to go. Rafael at Shiloh would quote a wholesale price, Dick would offer a best guess (kind of like Bernard Levine ;) ).

Cheers

GC
 
On a side note, my sister in law used to teach at John A Logan college. I didn't realize they actually owned relics like this. I'm curious how your acquaintance managed to work out the deal- is it because the state of Il is so broke? Is he also in southern Illinois?
 
the possum said:
On a side note, my sister in law used to teach at John A Logan college. I didn't realize they actually owned relics like this. I'm curious how your acquaintance managed to work out the deal- is it because the state of Il is so broke? Is he also in southern Illinois?
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Maybe they don't allow long knives on campus and then some students complained that the head of the university was allowed that huge saber hanging over the fireplace behind his desk?
 
There is a museum at the college and notes of memorabilia of the personage and wife. There is one (of several) statue of him portraying him laying aside his sword and coat to return to civilian life.

http://www.civilwar.org/education/h...A-Logan.html?referrer=https://www.google.com/

The college was founded in 1967, hence my thoughts about provenance and chain of ownership. What is lacking is the log by the family, papers showing the transfer of goods as a donation, etc. The cause the college and museum would sell the artifact might also be cause to question. I'm not saying it might not be honest but without this evidence, it is just a sword with a story. On that basis, such a sword's value is more in the eye of the beholder than material worth. Priceless, as irreplaceable. Again, unless it is inscribed or there are solid notes from the family for 150yrs, it's just a story.

Cheers

As an aside, I remember my older sister arbitrarily giving my dad's wedding ring to her son in law. A dozen years later, my niece gives me the ring as unwanted and "sell it if you want". Ya, right. Not likely and it will join other memorabilia and stay in the family until someone else just says "scrap it".

GC
 
horseclover said:
Sorry but you aren't really offering enough information to base an opinion on.

How much is it worth to the current owner?
How much is it worth to a seller?
How much is it worth to a buyer?
Was it an inscribed presentation sword?
What is the current condition?

Ironclad provenance must include his own personal correspondence describing the sword exactly. Or, an inscription on the sword itself. Lacking either of those, notes from the family showing transfer from generation to generation. When was the sword passed on the the college?

The staff&field swords are more valuable than the foot officer models and despite a Horstmann being more rare, an Ames will bring more money.

A plain jane Horstmann staff&field could easily get more than $1000 if in good nick but $6000 would be a fairy tale price unless it was a fancier inscribed presentation piece with a more colorful history of the recipient. Prices one might see listed are not necessarily what they sell at. Just look at sites such as Civil War Presentations, Arizona Swords, Shiloh Relics etc for premium pricing.

Dick Bezdek (theswordman.com) does appraisals, as do some others and if shopping for an insurance or sales quote, that is the way to go. Rafael at Shiloh would quote a wholesale price, Dick would offer a best guess (kind of like Bernard Levine ;) ).

Cheers

GC
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My understanding is that the provenance includes papers describing the sword as part of the bequest and it has been kept by the University with the rest of the memorabilia ever since.

I do not know when the bequest was made.

Thanks for the informed thoughts.
 
the possum said:
On a side note, my sister in law used to teach at John A Logan college. I didn't realize they actually owned relics like this. I'm curious how your acquaintance managed to work out the deal- is it because the state of Il is so broke? Is he also in southern Illinois?
Click to expand...

According to him part of the bequest was that the University would only keep the items for a certain amount of time and would then sell them. Seems a bit odd to me too, I can only say what I was told.
 
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