Swords and whackdom

Mark Williams

Mark Williams

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What is it with swords that emblazens so many to such lofty perches :confused:

Why always such controverted dialog? Such passion :eek:
 
The great teacher Iotto Know, once said:

He who has the sword....has the biggest knife!
 
You should make some Mark. It's a different world.....but your question needs a serious answer. I am a little reluctant to do it because I've tried all day, in between meetings, to stop the fighting here and my version of the true answer will sting some sore spots.

I have been involved with martial arts of one form or the other since I was 12 years old. Thats longer than many of the members are old.
I have taught martial arts and self defense as well as various weapons including firearms.

Many of you have heard of me talk about my days in another life and that was when I was in law enforcement. I have been in fights both in my mis-spent youth and work related. I have been stabbed, shot and had bones broken....I lived through Viet Nam if you call that living.

None of that is anything to brag about. Really the opposite. What it does do is give me the right to talk about martial arts in the REAL WORLD.
When I speak of Martial From here, I am speaking of oriental Martial Arts.


I, like many people have a love affair with swords. That's what started me making knives in the first place. I couldn't afford the kind of Katana I wanted so I made one, then another and before long, got kind of good at it. Then I discovered that there were swords other than Katanas and they worked pretty well.

On with the explanation and the hurt feelings. American Martial arts have become way to involved in the mysticism of the 70's. Americans are not oriental and don't see traditions and customs the same way Orientals do. It would be like taking a Chinese man fresh off the boat and teach him to be a Blue Ridge good old boy.

Further, and this is from knowing many so called masters over the years, martial arts are being taught by people who have never raised their hand in anger, never been truly hurt or hurt anyone else. It's all BOOKLEARNING for a better term.

So the American Swordsmen turn to the code of the Japanese warrior. They learn philosophy, they learn moves, they learn the language but they still haven't got a firm grasp of what the sword is. It is to the oriental, what the American Long rifle is to me. A beloved tool. Nothing more.

Most grow out of it at some point but unfortunately many, hang on to the lone Samurai trying to improve his skill, attitude, long after they should have put the Marvel comic books in a box for their kids.

These are the loud ones Mark. People who have replaced the ability to use Martial Arts as a form of self defense and in some cases offense, with silly oriental mysticism that was taught by people who couldn't possibility understand it. When I say silly, I mean for an American. I'm not sure Americans are capable of understanding Oriental Culture much less practice any form of semi religious rites.

That's my take on it!
 
Most of our blade legends involve swords, both European and Eastern. The sword has held a place of high honor in all societies, often used much more as a symbol than an actual weapon. Kings, emperors and lords all carried swords as the symbol of their status. In the old days this was used to embellish and lend credence to the reputations and lore of those peoples and cultures (e.g. Britain’s ultimate hero had to have the ultimate sword “Excalibur”).

We like to think that we have advanced a little bit more than believing in magic swords still, but sadly too much of the population is still pretty gullible and medieval in their thinking. Today the same romantic concepts of the past are often shamelessly used inappropriately in sales pitches to those still susceptible to the old mythology.

Swords are a complicated beast, everything about them is on a grander scale and that is why they inspire awe in so many. On the other hand they are just another steel tool that has to play within the same physical laws that any other blade has to. I have seen some sword folks appear to pull entirely new branches of physics out of their rectum in order to come off as the foremost expert in their field, an I guess they are if they just invented their field.

I make a good 70% of my business from swords, and I can say with certainty that they are not just big knives. There is a whole new set of parameters to work with to make a good sword, and most knifemakers get into trouble when they get over 10 inches and have a hard time getting it correct. I have been fortunate to have very free access to some fantastic originals in private hands, and learned a great deal that cannot be ascertained without handling the real deal.

Things like proper cross sections, balance points and edge geometry take on special meaning with swords, but the metallurgy and physics are all still the same, so if some bozo is feeding a line on swords that is above and beyond what your normal common sense tells you about steel and cutting things, don’t let the size of the blade cause you to shut off your intellect. Walk away from the con job and find a guy that will give you credit for having a brain and will give it to you straight, without insulting your intelligence while trying to take your money.
 
Kevin and Peter make interesting points.

As a lurker who accidentally wandered in here while looking for a good whittling or Japanese style kitchen knife, I must admit that I like to look at and touch swords, though I have absolutely no idea why I would want one, or what I would do with one. Well, unless I was setting up a museum. :) Sort of the same way I feel about some of Glen Water's pieces http://www.glennwaters.com/page1menu.htm (leaves my jaw on the floor, but I'd be afraid to touch it for fear of leaving a smudge on it. To me, this is way out of my class... too expensive for a decoration and too pretty to be useful or stash away in a safety-deposit box)

I do find it fascinating that iron can have so many different properties, and, as a subset of that, I am curious about the tradeoffs between knives and swords (as well as the tradeoffs between files, street grader blades and hammers... hard fine edge, abrasion resistance, shock resistance), the history of smelting around the world and the properties and structures of different steels, such as those mentioned in this article http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/patterns.html (the design of Viking swords is also interesting) or this one http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.html

As far as Japanese blades go, I'm fascinated by the evolution of them from the Korean style Bronze swords of the Yoyoi and Kofun eras to modern makers who try to reproduce techniques used in the 1300s.... basically, the whole process of making them as well as polishing them to bring out the hada and hamon (actually wouldn't mind learning how to polish a sword, though, not being particularly patient, I think I'd be better off sticking to small things like paring knives. I'm also fascinated by the properties of the stones themselves as well as their effects on different metals, and to that end I'll sometimes take a stone to any old hunk of metal and then examine it under a microscope. Using a waterstone is a bit mediative and relaxing as well)

I do have a friend who is also interested in such things... she has a small collection of 19th century bayonets and a Thai sword with an intricately carved scabbard. Aside from being a Civil War buff, perhaps they somehow rekindle part of that old lizard-brain that first picked up a hunk of broken flint and thought "hey, I can use this," and allows you to admire human ingenuity, as well as the maker's artistry or skill, on a simple basic level, without bringing in the intellectual complications involved with more complex inventions like steam engines or cell phones.

Still, I think both my, and my friend's interest in such things (as well as yours, as makers, or those who like to collect fantasy/art-knives/swords) is quite different from a lot of young guys who get caught up in the mystique of The Last Samurai, or some half-baked ninja movie, and want to emulate some "bad ass" image.... Why else would so many manufacturers be pushing that "tactical" stuff if they didn't find a ready market in those who secretly want to play commando, or those who want to delude themselves into thinking that they are "ready" for the hoards of thugs just waiting to mug them on every street corner? Movies, manufacturer's adverts. and those arm-chair commandos are probably also largely responsible for all the threads I've seen here about "sheeple" who freak out when someone, other than a hunter or carpet layer, innocently fishes out a pocket knife to open a box or peel an apple.
 
This is an interesting thread. Mark has a subtle way of bringing out the opinions in many of us. ;) As you've come to expect by now, I have a story too.

Like many others, my dad came home from the Occupation with a Japanese sword. It's not an heirloom blade (to any but me), being machine made for wartime. But that blade is singularly responsible for my lifelong interest in knives. Rummaging through my parent's closet to find its hiding place is one of the earliest things I can remember; wielding it over my head and slicing the air one of my favorite childhood passtimes. Once I applied a deep cut to their bedding, which I quickly covered up. No one ever asked me about the mysterious slice in my folks' sheets. That sword engenders a deep emotional attraction in me that I do not understand even now. It is beautiful, even if merely symbolic in its original purpose.

That sword's importance to me has been a family joke all my life. The year my dad passed it to me as a Christmas gift was one of the highlights of his life. By various means he and my brother in law had managed to get the idea across to me that I was going to get a samurai sword for Christmas. On the day, when I opened the box...there lay a plastic child's toy purchased in the grocery store. It was pink and lime green.

I was not particularly amused. For an adult, I made something of a childish scene, which was thoroughly enjoyed by everyone but my mom (she loved me and understood and cared what was going on in my silly head). The rest of em just loved tormenting me.

When they'd drawn enough "blood" by the end of the day, my dad got everyone interested around, and passed the sword to me. I'll never forget it. The reverence I feel for that simple blade is not something I claim to understand; it's just a cool object that had taken on herculean meaning in my life.

One of the first things I did that winter was set up some cardboard clothing wardrobes in the garage, and procede to cut them. Once the blade stuck in the board and as I reached up to pull it out, I sliced deeply into the joint of my middle finger. Ouch! I learned to respect the sword in a pragmatic way that evening as I bled all over the floors. I cherish that sword above most of the other material things I own, and always will. I have no idea who I'll pass it along to, unless my own son develops some sort of appreciation for it. So far nada.

Anyway, I'm a child of the Bruce Lee era too. Dreams of kickass filled my head for many years and I learned to clumsily do nunchuku kata in my backyard like many other silly fools. I banged my knees and elbows until I could barely move, pretending to swack! evildoers. I made various bo and created and practiced unbeatable moves against the trees and dog. One day my dad made the tactical error of making fun of me as I swirled in deadly mock combat, and I laid the end of my bo next to his cheek so quickly he didn't see me move (practice, practice, practice). The look of surprize and recognition on his face was priceless. It surprized me too! I was so freakin cool. Yeah. Right.

I had a few interpersonal physical contests in my youth, never until I was pushed too far, and never one that I lost. The "berserker" mentality is real. So far as I know no one's ever tried to kill me and I've never been in wartime combat. Fortunately for me I learned early enough that my size and steely glare are sufficient to back anyone down. Had it ever come to kung fu fighting I'd wind up a crumpled mess, and I knew it.

What does all this have to do with sword whackdom? Well, a sword has informed much of my life. It led me to typical adolescent dreams of martial mastery that fortunately caused no one any real harm. I think it's a part of growing up that is harder for some people to integrate into reality than others. (I know 35 year old men who still live their D&D characters.) These dreams are not bad. My own blade dreams were the root of my lifelong affair with sharp steel. I've never been without a knife close by to use and admire. And I never will be.

Yeah, I want to make a sword too; if I ever get off my dead and dyin to build a salt pot I'm sure I'll do that very thing. Will I wield it playing air sword? Probably, in the dark of night when the neighbors cannot see. Will I think I'm really gonna eradicate some terrible foe? Let's hope not. But won't it be fun?
 
"Dreams of kickass filled my head for many years " He He Thanks Dave , that made my morning. Thanks to everyone else also. looks to me that we are just maybe a bit more civililized than we were intended to be in the first place :). I guess holding a bigass hunk of sharp steel does instill some pretty primal instincts.
 
I think it comes from the 2 groups of interest. You have one crowd that seems to think there is a magical power behind the sword, they go back to the ninja mentality and stories of rituals they read in a book. Then there is the science/engineering side where folks are looking at modern metalurgy, cross sections,balance points, heat treatment and all that.
The scientific crowd does not like taking " the ancient swordmakers did it during a full moon" as an answer. They want a logical reason backed up with real evidence as to why something came to be.Sometimes they become very heated. They don't have the mentality to just accept something without evidence, so they don't understand why others would. Kind of frustrating to deal with someone you view as a somewhat normal intelligient person, who refuses to use the same logic you do.
The mystical crowd doesn't like hearing anyone question the power of the samurai. They may not have any samurai in their blood, and may not have any real connection to martial arts other than reading the stories of old, but the fantasy is important too them. Maybe they just took some classes cause their doctor told them to get some exercise, or maybe they have a real deep seated interest in martial arts, but the idea of the lifetime of training to become a ninja really appeals to them. It may not be a path thats really open to them, but the idea is important to them and they don't like people telling them its a load of crap. I don't really see this side of the coin but I think its innocent enough and I dont' have a problem with them.
Then there is the 3rd party of mall ninja morons and armchair commandos who just want to be ultra tactical.They think if they buy enough tactical toys they will become a ninja/viking berserker/ultimate fighter. Their stupidity can be amusing at times but for the most part I just end up wanting to :barf:
 
You gentlemen have impressed me with your knowledge of the sword and the understanding of such a weapon. I had two antique swords that sadly had to be converted to cash during a low cash flow years ago. Five dependents during a job layoff made the decision. The only swords I have seen since were what I call trinket swords, not even good enough to be called reproductions. As you already realize, I do not move in the same circles as many of you more worldly makers. My wife and I went to a small burg southeast of here a year ago to rescue a pup that was going to a county kill shelter with about 15 other dogs and pups. We Picked out the pup we wanted and were making polite talk with the folks before leaving when the certified nutcase demanded $35 dollars from us. This same guy was arrested a couple of weeks before, walking around the tiny town naked and screaming he was Jesus Christ. His best friend's wife was with us, and lived in another town about 10 miles away. Hers was the address we were directed to go to for the pup. Anyhow, we exited the nutcase's place and took the lady home. Upon arriving at her place, she told me her hunband was a swordmaker and would be home shortly from his construction job. We decided to wait for him while his wife chatted with us. She informed us he had studied with Japanese masters for years. I was impressed, but wondered why their washing machine was in the front yard, hooked up to a yard faucet. Also, the front door would not open and you had to crawl through a front porch window to get into the house. She produced some of the sorriest excuses for knives that her husband had made, AFTER the alledged study in Japan. She then produced a box of photos of here husband posing in his ninja suit and sword. Pictures of him on their roof, in trees, behind trees, and also of him standing over one of his laughing buddys with the sword held high over his prone "victim" buddy. You couldn't see the sword player's face because of the ninja mask he wore.This was too much. My wife gave me one of those flee looks. I informed the lady we just had to go, time was pressing. I had a mental picture of the guy chopping puppies and accidentally whacking a bystander with his ninja sword moves. Nutcases come from small burgs too, but so do some of our best knife and sword makers. I wonder of he still crawls in through his front window. Probably.
 
:eek: :D :eek:

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Bring on them Ninjas
 
D&D players- everyone of them. :barf:
Ya know, I think that every single one of them needs to get a deep cut with a ninja sword. Having a bit of realultimatepower leaking from from their veins aught to give them some respect.
 
John Andrews said:
Upon arriving at her place, she told me her hunband was a swordmaker and would be home shortly from his construction job. We decided to wait for him while his wife chatted with us. She informed us he had studied with Japanese masters for years.
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ROFL, notice how a good wife can "spin" her husband's insanity in a good light to mask her own lack of taste... you're not supposed to dig too deep into the illusion! :p
 
ddavelarsen said:
When they'd drawn enough "blood" by the end of the day, my dad got everyone interested around, and passed the sword to me. I'll never forget it. The reverence I feel for that simple blade is not something I claim to understand; it's just a cool object that had taken on herculean meaning in my life.
Click to expand...

I think I understand. Kind of reminds me of that scene in Conan the Barbarian where Conan falls into that cave, finds that sword in the giant skeleton's hand, uses it to cut the chains binding his feet and lofts it into the air praising Grom, the god of steel. People are creatures of symbolism.

Not sure how the cult following for samurai and their swords developed though. AFAIK, the bow and arrow was the samurai's primary weapon, and ancient legend tells of how tengu (bird-like mystical creatures often depicted as a cross between a person and a crow who like to play tricks on humans) taught the Yamoto the art of the bow, which allowed their clan to conquor and rule Japan. Perhaps the Meiji government came up with some pretty good stories and brainwashing mythology about bushido if it could still inspire kamakazi pilots 80 years later, as well as infect part of the American occupation forces (after all, they forcibly made their own governmental version of Shinto the state religion, controlled all the shrines and schools and created myths and ideals to inspire and indoctrinate the populace into becoming eager pawns of the state).
 
peter ryt said:
D&D players- everyone of them. :barf:
Ya know, I think that every single one of them needs to get a deep cut with a ninja sword. Having a bit of realultimatepower leaking from from their veins aught to give them some respect.
Click to expand...

They're kids having fun. It isn't a serious website.:rolleyes:

Time to lighten up a bit.
http://www.realultimatepower.net/
 
no, its just that my best friend nearly lost his left hand that way. he still has the sword, but he no longer looks at it from the perspective as he would a toy. Incidentally, he was a D&D player who went out and tried live his adventures.
 
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