Sword's vs. Heavy armor

M

Matt B

Joined
Oct 16, 2000
Messages
118
Just an interesting factoid that has something to do with khuks-

Even when sword's were in heavy use during the middle ages, the were considered mostly ineffective against the rare, but dangerous heavily armored opponent...however, the falacata was known to be capable of splitting armor (especially helmets) as well as what was inside that armor. As you may know, the falcata was a precursor to the Khukuri...and was a widely feared sword (much like the khukuri is/was a widely feared knife) not only were the shape and physics of the sword imposing, but the tempering was spectacular...ancient Falcata's were found to have blades that continually decreased in hardness from outside to inside (much like ancient viking pieces)...

The Khukuri and it's cousins are some of the most dangerous and effective weapons ever produced...and are known to have stood against even heavy armor. It can be argued that a large khuk is more an axe than a sword, and thus is a heavy weapon, and shouldn't be judged to sword standards...but I maintain a khukuri is in a class all it's own, and has it's own set of very, very high standards...

regards
Matt
 
Too right Matt! The closest medieval Europe got performance wise to the falcata was the falchion. Having cut with both khukuri and falchion I think the khukuri (and falcata) win hands-down (no pun intended).

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"To Know and to Act are One"
 
My understanding of the history of things was that swords became heavily modified into piercing weapons as more and more armor accumulated in Europe, and eventually were largely replaced by axes, war hammers, and polearms.

And I'd agree that khukuris aren't really axes. An axe's point of balance is either centered in the head or just a little beneath it, whereas a khukuri is closer to the center. The axe uses the huge weight behind its head to chop in like a big chisel driven by a hammer, whereas the edge geometry of a khukuri allows it it cut and feeds the target back across more blade as it goes. And a khukuri has incredible draw-cutting power that an axe just doesn't. It's a lot more versatile tool. A class of its own.

With the falcata . . . do you mean to say their hardening was a kind of case hardening? I'd really like a description of that process . . .
 
Something like case hardening, I guess

The Celt-Iberians and the Vikings had blades that were hardest on the outside, and constantly got softer as the core of the steel was reached...from what I understand, the process they used is still unknown...however, it made for excellent swords. Few people know how complex the Viking methods were...sometimes more complex and refined than what is traditionally regarded as the most exacting blade, the nihonto.

regards
Matt

[This message has been edited by Matt B (edited 06-19-2001).]
 
There was one Norse smith who unhappy with the way a sword turned out, filed it down and mixed it with whatever he was feeding his chickens, collected their ca-ca until he had all his filings back and "smelted" the iron and steel back to make a new blade.

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"To Know and to Act are One"
 
:
I believe (no proof) that if you took a khukuri and gradually removed the steel from the sweet spot that you would find it softer inside as well.
We have pretty much determined that the heat of the blade, as the sweet spot is hardened by pouring water on it, draws or tempers the steel automatically since there is no further drawing or tempering the blade by reheating..
There is really no other explanation or at least no one has offered one before that I can recall.

And I think (my opinion, different than no proof) that the initial pouring of water hardens the blade to a much higher rockwell number than the finished blade
has.
And the other pourings cools the sweet spot down enough to maintain the degree of the finished
hardness by keeping the heat of the blade from drawing or tempering the sweet spot too
much.
There has to be some way of keeping the heat from the blade from drawing or tempering the blade too much and with just one pouring of the water I think the heat from the rest of the blade would draw it too too soft a rockwell hardness and would render the blade useless except for possibly a meat cutting knife
only.
Any contact with bone at all would ding or impact the edge considerably. But it would be easily resharpened and tough as hell.
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I think (again my opinion) the softer insides may be in the shape of a wedge /\ that would mostly conform to the shape of the edge or a bit steeper since the very edge would be the hardest part and would extend into the blade a reasonable amount. After a few years of sharpening the edge would gradually go from say 60 Rc to 55 Rc and then deteriorate rapidly from there to what the Rc of the middle flat part of the blade would be.

I hope all the above makes sense to everyone. I could explain it a lot better in person with a chalkboard to draw on.
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And remember these things are what I either believe or what I think.
But I don't recall anyone else coming up with a possible explanation to how the blades are hardened and not drawn back to a usable Rc by reheating the
blade.

If a khukuri's edge were any harder than say 59-60 Rc they would chip too badly for use as a
chopper.
And Dan K had a very legitimate point when he said that harder wasn't necessarily better.
IIRC Dan said he prefered an edge around 55 Rc since it is more easily sharpened in the field with lmited resources and he is exactly
right.
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But I still prefer an edge around 59-60 Rc because it doesn't have to be sharpened as often.
But you have to be constantly aware of that and take it ito consideration when using the khukuri or any other knife.
That means that you may want to think twice before chopping with a twisting motion in hard wood as well as being careful to not impact rocks or other objects that will chip the edge of your knife.
But on the other hand I have used just such a method with the khukuris I use and have had no problems except impact with rocks and
such.
But then again I wouldn't use the twisting motion while trying to chop the infamous Oklahoma Blackjack Oak if it were well seasoned.
I think that dayumed wood is almost as hard as the steel sometimes!!!!
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Yvsa.

"VEGETARIAN".............
Indin word for lousy hunter.
 
Doc,

The story comes form the Thiøriks Saga. The smiths name is Velent. In making a sword called Mimming for the king he did this process twice. The king was very pleased with the second sword but Velent decided to carry it off saying "It must be better still". He rapidly made an far inferior sword that looked like the other in appearance and kept the second one.

Elder Bro,

Thanks for sharing your expert opinions. And very good advice too!

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"To Know and to Act are One"
 
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