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Does anybody have any experience with Tactical-ops knives? They manufacture there knives with 1095 steel. What can you tell me about the quality of there blades? When heat treated properly is 1095 a good steel?
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Tactical-ops knives
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1095 is a great steel when heat treated properly. It is relatively inexpensive too, but you wouldn't know that looking at TOPS prices. It will take a great edge and edge holding is pretty good. Allen Blade uses 1095 a lot on knives. With this, though, you get a differential heat treat which makes the blade very tough with its great edge taking/holding characteristics. i haven't any experience with TOPS blades but you can trust "properly" heat treated 1095- especially with a differential heat treat.
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"Come What May..."
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"Come What May..."
narruc1
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I'm confused... 1095 steel has no Chromium at all in it. Now, all the steel that we like, and most knife makers use have quite a bit of Chromium.
Can someone explain how 1095 can be a good steel to use in knife making without this component?
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BC... For those who fought for it, Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know... Semper Fi
[This message has been edited by narruc1 (edited 10-17-2000).]
Can someone explain how 1095 can be a good steel to use in knife making without this component?
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[This message has been edited by narruc1 (edited 10-17-2000).]
Cliff Stamp
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Because 1095 it is not an alloy steel, it is fairly weak and has a low wear resistance. It is also very easy to grind and decently durable (impact toughness and ductility). Cost is very low as it is dead cheap, does not run through much belts and has a simple heat treat.
TOPS has a lot of designs that seem to be designed to make a strong visual impression at the cost of function. However some of their blades are very clean with simple profiles, the Anaconada for example. The serrations on the handle do take getting used to though.
In that price range however, I would put the Becker line ahead of the TOPS one. They use a tool steel which should be stronger and more wear resistant. The profiles are simple and functional. The handles look ergonomic and probably decently secure (not as strong as the TOPS blade in this area however) and Camillus has a warrenty on their blades.
-Cliff
TOPS has a lot of designs that seem to be designed to make a strong visual impression at the cost of function. However some of their blades are very clean with simple profiles, the Anaconada for example. The serrations on the handle do take getting used to though.
In that price range however, I would put the Becker line ahead of the TOPS one. They use a tool steel which should be stronger and more wear resistant. The profiles are simple and functional. The handles look ergonomic and probably decently secure (not as strong as the TOPS blade in this area however) and Camillus has a warrenty on their blades.
-Cliff
I have had great experiences with TOPS knives. I must admit however, I only have two and neither are in 1095 steel. I own a Street Scalpel in stainless and one of their new big folders (Magnum) with the blade in CM154.
The Magnum is a really great knife. Seems to hold its edge as well or better than my other knives and functions (opens and closes) as smooth as silk. Also it is VERY VERY aggressive looking. The sheath however is nothing special.
The black finish also seems to hold up better than some of the other makes I own. The Tops warranty is lifetime to the original owner including the finish (with proper usage). Check out their web site at www.tactical-ops.com
In a nutshell, I would buy another from Tops without hesitation.
I know nothing about metallurgy. However a few people have said that 1095 steel is not an alloy. However Tops advertises its steel, of fixed blades, as "1095 High Carbon Alloy - 58 Rc"
The Magnum is a really great knife. Seems to hold its edge as well or better than my other knives and functions (opens and closes) as smooth as silk. Also it is VERY VERY aggressive looking. The sheath however is nothing special.
The black finish also seems to hold up better than some of the other makes I own. The Tops warranty is lifetime to the original owner including the finish (with proper usage). Check out their web site at www.tactical-ops.com
In a nutshell, I would buy another from Tops without hesitation.
I know nothing about metallurgy. However a few people have said that 1095 steel is not an alloy. However Tops advertises its steel, of fixed blades, as "1095 High Carbon Alloy - 58 Rc"
Cliff Stamp
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The TOPs warrenty is a claused one the Camillus one is not, there is no comparison.
During the course of evaluating the Steel Eagle I damaged it several times and each time contacted TOPS by email with no responce. I checked with several people on the Hoodlums forum to make sure I was using the correct active email. I was and Fuller was email active at the time.
1095 is a plain carbon steel and will be listed as such in any material books. Its Tensile strength is about half that of a alloy steel like 6150.
-Cliff
During the course of evaluating the Steel Eagle I damaged it several times and each time contacted TOPS by email with no responce. I checked with several people on the Hoodlums forum to make sure I was using the correct active email. I was and Fuller was email active at the time.
1095 is a plain carbon steel and will be listed as such in any material books. Its Tensile strength is about half that of a alloy steel like 6150.
-Cliff
I did a little research. Here is a quote on what is said about 1095 High Carbon Alloy. It should help out as I was getting a bit confused:
"When you go in order from 1095-1050, you generally go from more carbon to less, from better edge holding to less edge holding, and tough to tougher to toughest. As such, you'll see 1060 and 1050, used often for swords. For knives, 1095 is sort of the "standard" carbon steel, not too expensive and performs well. It is reasonably tough and holds an edge very well. It rusts easily. This is a simple steel, which contains only two alloying elements: @.95% carbon and .4% manganese. The various kabars are usually 1095 with a black coating."
"When you go in order from 1095-1050, you generally go from more carbon to less, from better edge holding to less edge holding, and tough to tougher to toughest. As such, you'll see 1060 and 1050, used often for swords. For knives, 1095 is sort of the "standard" carbon steel, not too expensive and performs well. It is reasonably tough and holds an edge very well. It rusts easily. This is a simple steel, which contains only two alloying elements: @.95% carbon and .4% manganese. The various kabars are usually 1095 with a black coating."
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Have several of the TOPS knives. My Anaconda has seen about 2.5 yrs of service in the field as a military tool (abused) and I have no complaints. Have plenty of other knives, Busse etc. but this is the one that stays on my LBV. Just my opinion.
Mike Fuller does not have a computer or an email address. The TOPs web site is run by someone other than Mike so your statement is not accurate Cliff. Whatever happened to a simple phone call....unlike most of us, some folks don't use the internet to communicate with.
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Randall's Adventure & Training
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Randall's Adventure & Training
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narruc1:
Chromium is a strong carbide former, which is great, but most people choose high chrome knives for their stain resistance. Stain resistance, however, is only one property of many to choose from when deciding what you want your knife to do. If the Annacondas were maid out of a high chrome steel you would find more damage to them, as stainless steels are, for the most part, not as strong as plain carbon steels. Also, 1095 is much easier to sharpen than 440-C, ATS-34, etc. and takes a great edge. Plus, since you can differentially heat treat 1095 and other carbon steels, you can get toughness not found in "all-hardened" blades, of which most stainless blades are.
Cliff makes a great point about cost. Ka-Bars are in part inexpensive due to their steel choice. Look at the price of the D-2 ka-bars or the new stainless ones and you'll see how much using different materials can increase the cost of your final product.
Do I sound like Cliff yet?
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"Come What May..."
Chromium is a strong carbide former, which is great, but most people choose high chrome knives for their stain resistance. Stain resistance, however, is only one property of many to choose from when deciding what you want your knife to do. If the Annacondas were maid out of a high chrome steel you would find more damage to them, as stainless steels are, for the most part, not as strong as plain carbon steels. Also, 1095 is much easier to sharpen than 440-C, ATS-34, etc. and takes a great edge. Plus, since you can differentially heat treat 1095 and other carbon steels, you can get toughness not found in "all-hardened" blades, of which most stainless blades are.
Cliff makes a great point about cost. Ka-Bars are in part inexpensive due to their steel choice. Look at the price of the D-2 ka-bars or the new stainless ones and you'll see how much using different materials can increase the cost of your final product.
Do I sound like Cliff yet?
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"Come What May..."
I have a few Tops knives and I have to say that they are tuff blades. I carry one in particular which is the Model# 302 Interceptor, I have two of them. I have used them hard for work/play and they are worth there weight in gold! IMO!
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"ALWAYS WATCH YOUR SIX"
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"ALWAYS WATCH YOUR SIX"
Cliff Stamp
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Steel is an alloy of Iron and Carbon, a steel alloy is an Iron alloy which contains appreciable concentrations of alloying elements other than C and residual amounts of Mn, Si, S and P. 1095 is not an alloy steel. There is a huge difference in strength, ductility, impact toughness, wear resistance and corrosion resistance between the simple and alloy steels.
Crayola :
They are far stronger, thowever they are usually much less durable in regards to flexing and or impacts.
Jeff, it is of course quite possible that the people who told me it was an active email and that they had communicated with Fuller through it were lying, however it does not indicate much in the customer service department to have an unchecked email listed in the contact information (my emails never bounced, they were just not replied to).
As for phone calls, living outside the US and in a usually vastly different time zone, if there is a fast and free way to contact someone via the internet in regards to buying a product or a customer service issue then that is what I will choose. Especially in a case like this where the reason for doing it is so they are aware of a problem and can comment on it or take some sort of action in its regard.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 10-18-2000).]
Crayola :
They are far stronger, thowever they are usually much less durable in regards to flexing and or impacts.
Jeff, it is of course quite possible that the people who told me it was an active email and that they had communicated with Fuller through it were lying, however it does not indicate much in the customer service department to have an unchecked email listed in the contact information (my emails never bounced, they were just not replied to).
As for phone calls, living outside the US and in a usually vastly different time zone, if there is a fast and free way to contact someone via the internet in regards to buying a product or a customer service issue then that is what I will choose. Especially in a case like this where the reason for doing it is so they are aware of a problem and can comment on it or take some sort of action in its regard.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 10-18-2000).]
I do have to say that in any company, customer service is a very sensitive subject. A problem, no matter how minor, can turn a customer off to that vendor in an instant.
On the other hand, I have had great conversations and lots of wonderful help from the folks at TOPS. So if anyone is thinking about one of their items, rest assured that if you call them with questions you will have all of the attention you need.
On the other hand, I have had great conversations and lots of wonderful help from the folks at TOPS. So if anyone is thinking about one of their items, rest assured that if you call them with questions you will have all of the attention you need.
As Jeff stated, Mike does not have email. I don't know anyone who thinks that they can communicate with Mike that way. Sounds like Cliff is running another "experiment" and criticizes a man because he chooses to not join the digital riot.
Mike and Helen work by phone and his customer service is the best I've run into. Many people have commented on his service. They answer the phone till late at night and always take care of the customer. I've had folks email me to tell me they'd managed to scratch the coating on their blades (digging) and just wanted to find out how to fix the coating and Mike recoated the blade free of charge.
I have a choice of many different blades and my choice is TOPS. I've carried one for nearly 2.5 years now. I also carry a nice little blade by Simonich in Talonite.
As far as the performance of 1095 is concerned. Lab tests seldom reflect real world usage. When I looked at steels for my new ATAX tool I had many choices (go to my website and click the link). My great experience with the differentially tempered blades of TOPS and their superior coating convinced me to stay with 1095. I know that it can take abuse and continue to function.
We see a lot of TOPS knives on field trips these days and to a blade they have performed flawlessly. Cost? .... value is what you get. Every part is the best material available.
BTW there are "grades" of 1095 that range in price. Lower priced 1095 has more flaws (read weaknesses). Mike uses the best quality.
Rust, corrosion? From the days of yore folks have used steels that "Rust". Somehow they kept the blade clean. Rust does not form readily on blades that are in use. Rust fear is built into people these days. Wipe down your blade before you store it. End of problem. Those field trips? Never seen a speck of rust on any tool steel knife. BTW... I have a tool chest filled with tools my grandfather owned. Most are made with plain high carbon steel. None are rusted and none are coated. I wonder where the rust went? How is your hammer? Is it rusted Cliff? Perhaps it's made of stainless... hmmm.
Just my .02
Ron
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Mike and Helen work by phone and his customer service is the best I've run into. Many people have commented on his service. They answer the phone till late at night and always take care of the customer. I've had folks email me to tell me they'd managed to scratch the coating on their blades (digging) and just wanted to find out how to fix the coating and Mike recoated the blade free of charge.
I have a choice of many different blades and my choice is TOPS. I've carried one for nearly 2.5 years now. I also carry a nice little blade by Simonich in Talonite.
As far as the performance of 1095 is concerned. Lab tests seldom reflect real world usage. When I looked at steels for my new ATAX tool I had many choices (go to my website and click the link). My great experience with the differentially tempered blades of TOPS and their superior coating convinced me to stay with 1095. I know that it can take abuse and continue to function.
We see a lot of TOPS knives on field trips these days and to a blade they have performed flawlessly. Cost? .... value is what you get. Every part is the best material available.
BTW there are "grades" of 1095 that range in price. Lower priced 1095 has more flaws (read weaknesses). Mike uses the best quality.
Rust, corrosion? From the days of yore folks have used steels that "Rust". Somehow they kept the blade clean. Rust does not form readily on blades that are in use. Rust fear is built into people these days. Wipe down your blade before you store it. End of problem. Those field trips? Never seen a speck of rust on any tool steel knife. BTW... I have a tool chest filled with tools my grandfather owned. Most are made with plain high carbon steel. None are rusted and none are coated. I wonder where the rust went? How is your hammer? Is it rusted Cliff? Perhaps it's made of stainless... hmmm.
Just my .02
Ron
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Learn Life Extension at:
http://www.survival.com ]
Bronco
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It would appear that this is yet another illustration of how life is all about making intelligent compromises. TOPS has many viable reasons for wanting to use 1095 so extensively in their lineup of knives. It's a good steel that has a long history of usage in the cutlery industry. It's very inexpensive, takes a keen edge, resharpens easily, and is relatively simple to heat treat properly. Some of these factors make for a user friendly tool while others help keep production costs down. Both good things.
But here is where we inevitably get into the "good" vs. "better" vs. "best" discussion. Backpacker wants to know if properly treated 1095 is a "good" steel. I think the unequivocal answer here has to be yes. Does that mean Cliff is wrong in pointing out that there are many better steels currently available? I don't think so. This place is all about exchanging information and giving folks the ability to make informed decisions. I can't speak for Doc Ron, but I bet even he would be willing to admit that a knife like the TOPS Anaconda would be a "better" knife if it were crafted of differentially treated 5160 or 52100. At the very least I could see that with a 5160 Anaconda you would be able to take the grind up much higher toward the spine thus significantly increasing cutting efficiency while sacrificing nothing in overall strength, impact resistance or the ability to withstand prying forces.
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Semper Fi
-Bill
But here is where we inevitably get into the "good" vs. "better" vs. "best" discussion. Backpacker wants to know if properly treated 1095 is a "good" steel. I think the unequivocal answer here has to be yes. Does that mean Cliff is wrong in pointing out that there are many better steels currently available? I don't think so. This place is all about exchanging information and giving folks the ability to make informed decisions. I can't speak for Doc Ron, but I bet even he would be willing to admit that a knife like the TOPS Anaconda would be a "better" knife if it were crafted of differentially treated 5160 or 52100. At the very least I could see that with a 5160 Anaconda you would be able to take the grind up much higher toward the spine thus significantly increasing cutting efficiency while sacrificing nothing in overall strength, impact resistance or the ability to withstand prying forces.
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Semper Fi
-Bill
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I had a question about several of TOPS new knives. Guess what? I called them and Helen answered all my questions just as she and Mike have every other time I've called. I suppose I'm old fashioned and believe that people can get very busy running a prosperous buisness so they may not get back to me as quickly as I'd wish, but, I'm also old enough to have learned that patience and respect are virtues that aren't seen often enough in todays "high speed" world. As a very happy user of TOPS knives I recommend them to ANYONE. Slow down and enjoy life a little more and get ALL the facts before slamming hard working people like the Fullers, Cliff, and you made be surprised as what happens
BTW, I ordered some more knives from them as a result of my conversation with Helen. HMM nice people.
[This message has been edited by flatlander (edited 10-18-2000).]
[This message has been edited by flatlander (edited 10-18-2000).]
Cliff Stamp
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Bronco :
In general yes, this is exactly the benefit of using better materials, you can "push" on them harder and achieve a higher performance. The problem is that this is not well understood even among makers who will offer blades in identical geometries out of different steels.
It is common to see people say steels make little difference, because of this. Buy a blade in 3V with a geometry identical to a functional 1095 blade and they will perform next to identical in how they cut. Do you then conclude that 3V offers no advantage over 1095? Well no, you conclude that the person who made the 3V blade doesn't understand materials.
Jerry Hossom is an excellent example of a maker who has taken advantage of better materials in order to produce a better blade. When he switched from ATS-34 to 3V he was able to craft a knife/sword that cut significantly better and lost no functional levels of durability. He did not simply make the same blade in 3V and expect it to be better simply because of the steel.
As with the cost of 1095, it is one of the cheapest steels, regardless of grade, both in terms of base materials cost as well as working it and heat treating. Can you make a knife out of it? Of course you can. Will it be a functional tool? Of course it will. However you can say the same thing about Al alloys and even simple mild steel, I have used blades out of both. The fact remains is that with a better material you can achieve a blade that will be able to take higher levels of stress with a lower cross sectional requirement so that the cutting performance in general will go up.
You also have to look at the price. Allen Blade will make you a 10" combat bowie for far less than a large TOPS knife and this is a differentiall tempered, custom flat ground piece of 5160 with an enclosed tang and custom Kydex sheath. Matt Lamey also forges blade in the price range of the large TOPS blade and there are many others.
Ron :
First off a hammer can be fulled coated with rust and unless it is for finishing work, it will make no difference. Take your hammer and knife both NIB and leave them in salt water overnight. Then sheet up a house with the hammer and try to cut up fibreglass insulation with the knife. One tool will fail because of rusting one will not be effected significantly.
Anyway yes, my hammer is rusted, as are most tools except for the alloy wrenches mainly. The Cr-V steel is obviously very strong, but has the additional property of being very corrosion resistant. The jaws usually rust though as we use water as a coolant in the lab and the wrench jaws are wet on a regular basis and the atmosphere is high oxidizing due as Oxygen is often used so the concentrations in the air will be high. Even outside of the lab plain steels rust readily. I worked for a couple of years in construction about 10 years ago as it is a family business and there was not an abundance of shiny tools on the job site, except of course among the people who were new.
-Cliff
In general yes, this is exactly the benefit of using better materials, you can "push" on them harder and achieve a higher performance. The problem is that this is not well understood even among makers who will offer blades in identical geometries out of different steels.
It is common to see people say steels make little difference, because of this. Buy a blade in 3V with a geometry identical to a functional 1095 blade and they will perform next to identical in how they cut. Do you then conclude that 3V offers no advantage over 1095? Well no, you conclude that the person who made the 3V blade doesn't understand materials.
Jerry Hossom is an excellent example of a maker who has taken advantage of better materials in order to produce a better blade. When he switched from ATS-34 to 3V he was able to craft a knife/sword that cut significantly better and lost no functional levels of durability. He did not simply make the same blade in 3V and expect it to be better simply because of the steel.
As with the cost of 1095, it is one of the cheapest steels, regardless of grade, both in terms of base materials cost as well as working it and heat treating. Can you make a knife out of it? Of course you can. Will it be a functional tool? Of course it will. However you can say the same thing about Al alloys and even simple mild steel, I have used blades out of both. The fact remains is that with a better material you can achieve a blade that will be able to take higher levels of stress with a lower cross sectional requirement so that the cutting performance in general will go up.
You also have to look at the price. Allen Blade will make you a 10" combat bowie for far less than a large TOPS knife and this is a differentiall tempered, custom flat ground piece of 5160 with an enclosed tang and custom Kydex sheath. Matt Lamey also forges blade in the price range of the large TOPS blade and there are many others.
Ron :
First off a hammer can be fulled coated with rust and unless it is for finishing work, it will make no difference. Take your hammer and knife both NIB and leave them in salt water overnight. Then sheet up a house with the hammer and try to cut up fibreglass insulation with the knife. One tool will fail because of rusting one will not be effected significantly.
Anyway yes, my hammer is rusted, as are most tools except for the alloy wrenches mainly. The Cr-V steel is obviously very strong, but has the additional property of being very corrosion resistant. The jaws usually rust though as we use water as a coolant in the lab and the wrench jaws are wet on a regular basis and the atmosphere is high oxidizing due as Oxygen is often used so the concentrations in the air will be high. Even outside of the lab plain steels rust readily. I worked for a couple of years in construction about 10 years ago as it is a family business and there was not an abundance of shiny tools on the job site, except of course among the people who were new.
-Cliff