Taking a break from "super steels"... and I'm really enjoying it so far

retzius

retzius

Joined
Sep 17, 2009
Messages
1,102
I recently purchased a Gerber Order. It is part of their new USA made folder line and the design really appealed to me. I will post a short review later, but in summary everything was really nice except the edge... It was sharp but it was off to one side of the blade with an asymmetric grind.

Last night I put it on the Edgepro to even everything up and sharpening was an absolute breeze. I forgot that the blade steel was 420HC and initially put the coarse 120 stone on to start the reprofile just like I would with most of the new folders I have purchased over the last couple of years. The newer "super steels" need a very coarse stone to reprofile the blade, but to be honest I could have done a complete reprofile in a number of minutes using the 220 steel on the 420HC steel.

The Edgepro stones cut the 420HC like butter and brought out a brilliant mirror polish using only the stone progression without tapes or strops. After spending so much time and effort on many of the newer steels just to get a nice edge it was really refreshing to work with a steel that sharpens up so easily. To be honest, as an EDC blade and for my specific needs, I prefer a steel like 420HC. Sometimes I feel like the "super steels" are just making things more difficult as I don't really push my knives that hard.

Tonight, maybe I will sharpen up some 1055 or 440A just for fun :cool:
 
I think it is wonderful to have the steel choices we have nowadays, but there is something to be said for the simple, time-proven steels that have been used for a long time, and you see plenty of makers still using them, such as 1095, 440C, etc. If they meet your needs and they are easy to get and hold an edge in the outdoors. Of course, heat treat, edge geometry and quality materials, play into that as well. Thanks for a good refreshing post about what works for you.
 
IMO a steel that is easy to maintain is just as, if not more, "super" than one that will hold an edge slightly longer, but takes a long time to sharpen.
 
Just to add to my original post. I do think the "super steels" have their place and I welcome them whole heartedly. I think that for a small percentage of users who actually NEED that performance at the expense of ease of maintenance they can be a good option. However, I think currently the new steels are being used as primarily a marketing tool to drive sales and as an excuse to INCREASE the price and INCREASE the profit margin.

I noticed that Cold Steel (whom I personally really like and own some of their knives) have "re-introduced" many of their same knives but with new "improved" steels. I am sure that will drive some sales but does the end user really "need" that. I doubt many buyers of the Spartan have used and carried the knife so much that the one limiting factor for their needs was the Aus-8 steel :confused: If you noticed, the "new and improved" models are really just the same knife but with a "better" steel at a 50-100% mark-up.
 
I entirely agree with this thread. I love my super steels (classifying H1 and D2 as super steels) they definitely have their place and are put into hard use,
but just the other day I was walking around in the yard and found an Old Hickory Butcher (probably a basic carbon steel) and took a minute to appreciate how easy it is to keep up with some of the "average Joe" steel..
 
I love my "supe steel" knives but I have found my favorite steel to sharpen and mess around with is VG-10 and Aus8. They are not low end steel but good solid middle of the road steel that takes a super edge.
 
Good thread, OP! :thumbup::)

I don't mind 'simple' steels in my pocket knives, either. I just use 'em for random cutting chores encoutered throughout the day which, admittedly, isn't much.

I understand there are benefits to certain "super" steels that have dedicated tasks to perform. If I was looking for a good work knife, suitable for my job, steel choice would be more of a consideration for me. I also know that some steel is more costly to produce than others, which helps me to better understand the asking price of a knife (ie. high-end steels will always be more expensive--for reference: Buck's Select, Avid and Pro lines.)

-Brett
 
timberweasel said:
Good thread, OP! :thumbup::)

I don't mind 'simple' steels in my pocket knives, either. I just use 'em for random cutting chores encoutered throughout the day which, admittedly, isn't much.

I understand there are benefits to certain "super" steels that have dedicated tasks to perform. If I was looking for a good work knife, suitable for my job, steel choice would be more of a consideration for me. I also know that some steel is more costly to produce than others, which helps me to better understand the asking price of a knife (ie. high-end steels will always be more expensive--for reference: Buck's Select, Avid and Pro lines.)

-Brett
Click to expand...

I like how Buck introduced the idea of offering higher end steels in their lineup. They offered a design with different steels at different price points giving the consumer the option of choosing the steel which best suits their budget and needs. This is the way to do it!

Contrast this with Cold Steel's steel "upgrade" in their lineup. They have upgraded their steels, upgraded their prices by 50-100%, but are discontinuing the "old" model with cheaper steels :mad:

Oh well, the one good thing that comes from this is that "old" models are on close out prices right now so I am getting some great knives at a great price.
 
retzius said:
Contrast this with Cold Steel's steel "upgrade" in their lineup. They have upgraded their steels, upgraded their prices by 50-100%, but are discontinuing the "old" model with cheaper steels :mad:
Click to expand...

With so many other manufacturers jumping right into the deep end with M390, S90V, Elmax and whatnot (insert whatever "super-steel" name you wish,) I'm actually kind of surprised it's taken CS this long to 'upgrade' their main production line steel. I think it's what the market wants these days. And who knows... once they get past the expensive start-up hump running the newer steel, maybe their prices will settle? Time will tell.

Many will also criticize EKI for not getting onboard with the latest greatest steels, too. Mr.Emerson has his reasons for sticking with 154CM but, as time goes on, how much longer will people want to buy it, especially at his prices? 154CM is great steel, in my book. AUS-8 is good too. But sometimes, the consumer just wants, or even demands, more... *shrug*

Hope ya snap up some killer deals on some disco'd CS knives, Retzius! They'll serve you well for a long, long time!

-Brett
 
timberweasel said:
With so many other manufacturers jumping right into the deep end with M390, S90V, Elmax and whatnot (insert whatever "super-steel" name you wish,) I'm actually kind of surprised it's taken CS this long to 'upgrade' their main production line steel. I think it's what the market wants these days. And who knows... once they get past the expensive start-up hump running the newer steel, maybe their prices will settle? Time will tell.

Many will also criticize EKI for not getting onboard with the latest greatest steels, too. Mr.Emerson has his reasons for sticking with 154CM but, as time goes on, how much longer will people want to buy it, especially at his prices? 154CM is great steel, in my book. AUS-8 is good too. But sometimes, the consumer just wants, or even demands, more... *shrug*

Hope ya snap up some killer deals on some disco'd CS knives, Retzius! They'll serve you well for a long, long time!

-Brett
Click to expand...


CS is going to XHP for the most part I believe and that's not really all that bad, should be easy to sharpen for most people and holds a edge for a respectable amount of time, nice upgrade from AUS-8 while not being a large jump.

154CM is still an excellent steel, very well balanced performance wise.
 
I agree that some of the new "super steels" aren't very easy to sharpen, but I have found that once you have the angle where you want it, they really aren't too difficult to maintain. For example, I had my friend re-profile my Spyderco Southard (cts-204p) to 15dps using his wicked edge, because it came from Spyderco very obtuse, and my Sharpmaker would have taken me forever. But now that it is there, it only takes 20 or so swipes on the fine stones to bring it back to screaming sharp, and it holds that edge for a very long time.
 
Noswad0208 said:
IMO a steel that is easy to maintain is just as, if not more, "super" than one that will hold an edge slightly longer, but takes a long time to sharpen.
Click to expand...

I would say I agree with you on most of this, but that it also depends on the steels you are talking about.

I know from seeing multiple tests that several of the super steels will hold an edge much longer than many "non-super" steels, like AUS-8 and VG10. I'm not talking about a notable difference of 20-40%, I'm talking they will hold their edge for more than TWICE as long. Some of the steels designed specifically for edge retention, depending on what the cutting media is for the testing, can hold their edges 5 times as long, and even up to 10 times as long as VG-10 and AUS-8A. To many people, that means they shouldn't have to hardly ever actually sharpen their knives, but just maintain them on a strop.
Also, heat treat and cutting geometry are huge factors to edge retention, as well as how easy a knife it to sharpen.

Ankerson's tests also show those results.

Now, do I think that is the only way to gauge a steel? Nope. I love steel that is a balance of as many qualities as I can get, and is good for the task at hand. I like a steel that holds an edge longer for EDC, because I don't like to sharpen my EDC knife all the time, but I would much rather have a super tough steel that is easier to sharpen (like 3V if we're talking super steels) when I am out in the woods or similar.
On hunting trips, I usually have my Sebenza as a secondary cleaning knife. That's because it is really easy to bring to a super fine edge and keep it there, while having better overall qualities than any cheaper steel, even if the edge retention is not spectacular.

I've also handled a couple of customs knives that use amazing combinations of heat treatment, find tuning of edge geometry, and finishing styles on the edge to produce some insanely good edge retention out of steels that don't necessarily seem to be the best at it when you look at them on a stat chart. The maker can have a ton of impact on how a steel performs, whether "super" or not.
 
I am more about the design of the knife then the steel. Pretty much any knife from most well known manufacturers use a decent steel. I have used many knives with Aus-8 by Cold Steel and Rat-1 and knives from Spydrco's Byrd line with 8Cr13MoV.

I spent 2-1/2 years taking care of a two acre property repairing gutters on the house, plumbing, yard work etc. Never had an issue using these knives and they were really easy to sharpen. And I will be honest. I am a city guy and do database/IT work. I do not need a super steel...my Buck 110 since I have had since the 1970's would do everything that I need a knife to do, and do it well.

Now this is just my opinion, but I feel that 98% of the people on BF's do not need a super steel, it is more of a want thing. I mean the majority of the knives I see posted here with super steels have probably cut nothing more then a piece of paper. But super steels sell knives.
 
timberweasel said:
With so many other manufacturers jumping right into the deep end with M390, S90V, Elmax and whatnot (insert whatever "super-steel" name you wish,) I'm actually kind of surprised it's taken CS this long to 'upgrade' their main production line steel. I think it's what the market wants these days. And who knows... once they get past the expensive start-up hump running the newer steel, maybe their prices will settle? Time will tell.

Many will also criticize EKI for not getting onboard with the latest greatest steels, too. Mr.Emerson has his reasons for sticking with 154CM but, as time goes on, how much longer will people want to buy it, especially at his prices? 154CM is great steel, in my book. AUS-8 is good too. But sometimes, the consumer just wants, or even demands, more... *shrug*

Hope ya snap up some killer deals on some disco'd CS knives, Retzius! They'll serve you well for a long, long time!

-Brett
Click to expand...

I will say about Emerson:

I don't really want him to use a "super steel" necessarily on his knives, but if he just changed up the heat treat on his 154CM so it held an edge better, I would be happier.
Either that, or going into a more capable steel in terms of edge retention. I don't need a super steel, but there are many steels like 14C-28N, 154CM, and N690 that don't get enough credit, because the people who make the most knives out of them have a standardized heat treat that is not spectacular.

For example, I used to not like the Southern Grind Bad Monkey, and the fact that a Bodega used N690 used to confuse me, but once I used both steels for a while from those makers (offered by a friend of mine to try out for a little while), my opinions changed drastically on both. When treated properly, both of those steels can give you some really impressive performance, especially 14C-28N. It still does not hold an edge insanely long, but much longer than anything like AUS-8, N690 from cheaper makers, and VG-10. The main benefit of it though is how insanely tough it can be. The stuff just doesn't care what you do to it, it will keep kicking and you will not ding or chip it without really trying.

I know Emerson uses 154CM as soft as they do to make it easy to sharpen but it really isn't all that much easier than sharpening either of those two above, so I don't see a real reason for the massive loss in edge retention.
 
Doesn't have to be an either-or, you can like them both. I do.

If I'm doing a lot of cutting, however, I'll take a steel that holds an edge 10x (or more) longer, and can be sharpened in half the time (or less) of a more traditional steel. This "hard to sharpen" myth just won't die....
 
sodak said:
Doesn't have to be an either-or, you can like them both. I do.

If I'm doing a lot of cutting, however, I'll take a steel that holds an edge 10x (or more) longer, and can be sharpened in half the time (or less) of a more traditional steel. This "hard to sharpen" myth just won't die....
Click to expand...

How true. :)

For me the S30V/S35VN range is fine most of the time, but if I have to cut a ton of stuff I will grab one of my A11 blades in a heart beat. :D
 
sodak said:
Doesn't have to be an either-or, you can like them both. I do.

If I'm doing a lot of cutting, however, I'll take a steel that holds an edge 10x (or more) longer, and can be sharpened in half the time (or less) of a more traditional steel. This "hard to sharpen" myth just won't die....
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say "hard to sharpen" but I think "more time consuming to sharpen" is definitely true.

For example, if I had to reprofile a knife in S90v it is much more time consuming not just in setting the edge but also in ensuring that all scratches are gone between grit progressions. Once thing I find, at least with the Edgepro, is that the 120 stone will set a nice bevel on all but the hardest steels, but that it is almost too coarse and leaves deep scratches that take a long time to remove on the 220. If I don't take the time to remove those scratches than it can be frustrating as I often need to step down a grit or to and work my way back up to get a good result.

On steels like 420HC, Aus-8, or 1095 its a non-issue. I can work quickly and efficiently between grits and there is enough overlap that I don't need to be obsessive about removing deeper scratches during reprofiling to get a good result.
 
Enjoy your time away from super steels but I personally will not go back to soft steels after using a semi super steel (VG-10)

I'm a home cook and my first knife was a Victorinox Forschner with the Fibrox handle. I did like the comfort of the handle and the inexpensive price tag of $30. But the steel was so soft it kept going dull and I had to keep re-sharpening it.

I'd prefer to sharpen less often and have the knife retain it's edge use after use. My VG-10 HRC 59-60 gyuto the edge lasts and lasts. I sharpened it about a year ago and it's only now due for a touch up again. How much time would I have wasted sharpening that Forschner by now? It wouldn't hold an edge for more than 2-3 weeks.
 
Theory and real life have been different for me. In theory I want high wear or super easy to sharpen. In real life super easy to sharpen either means it also rusts or loses it's edge quickly. High wear is just a PITA to sharpen because I cut all sorts of stuff so the edge gets dents or small chips no matter what. In real world use I like the stainless or semistainless that has good wear characteristics but isn't a complete PITA to sharpen. For me that has been VG-10, Sleipnir, CPM154(154CM chips too much IMO), CPM 3V and CPM S35VN. They aren't abrasion resistant to the point they make it difficult to sharpen and they stay sharp longer than the other end of the spectrum all while being stainless or semistainless.
 
Jhansenak47 said:
Theory and real life have been different for me. In theory I want high wear or super easy to sharpen. In real life super easy to sharpen either means it also rusts or loses it's edge quickly. High wear is just a PITA to sharpen because I cut all sorts of stuff so the edge gets dents or small chips no matter what. In real world use I like the stainless or semistainless that has good wear characteristics but isn't a complete PITA to sharpen. For me that has been VG-10, Sleipnir, CPM154(154CM chips too much IMO), CPM 3V and CPM S35VN. They aren't abrasion resistant to the point they make it difficult to sharpen and they stay sharp longer than the other end of the spectrum all while being stainless or semistainless.
Click to expand...

For me CPM S35VN blades seem to represent an recognition by makers of steel and knives, that many users would accept a blade that needs sharpening a bit more frequently, in exchange for less risk of chipping and more ease of maintenance. It's nice that "super" isn't only about HR
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top