Talonites drawbacks?

storyville · Nov 28, 1999

So Ive read a bit about Talonites strengths. What might be its drawbacks? For example, I understand that CPM T440V sacrifices some toughness (even in the mid-50s HRC) while it dramatically increases wear resistance and edge-holding. Is this true of Talonite, as well?

Hypothetical question for anyone who has used this superalloy for a while (Rob Simonich, Bald1, Doc Welch, ...?): what one property or characteristic of Talonite would you improve if you could, and why?

Interested and curious --
Glen

Will Fennell · Nov 28, 1999

Storyville,
I've been using Talonite for some months now, and for a utility/skinning knife[which is what I have the Talonite experience with], the ONLY 'weakness' I can find is its costs. It is VERY expensive to purchase, and VERY expensive to grind into knife blades.

The only thing I would improve is its price/costs.

I love the stuff!

------------------
Stay Sharp!
Will Fennell
Camillus Cutlery

Tom Carey · Nov 28, 1999

I totally agree with Will's assesment. The cost is the only major downside. I have used a knife in the past in Talonite in the utility role on a daily basis and was happy with the performance. I do hope the price will come down so that more people can have the chance of owning knives in this fine material.

Regards,

Tom Carey

JoHnYKwSt · Nov 28, 1999

storyville,

I believe you mean 440V sacrifices hardness at 55Rc, not toughness. I don't think lowering the hardness to 55Rc increases wear resistance and edge holding. The lowering of the hardness is just to conteract the steel's brittleness. Lowering hardness will lose edge holding in some respects.

Talonite's hardness is around 45Rc. The edge will dent and roll easier with this very low hardness. And so some edge holding will be lost in this way. If the edge is kept fairly thick, there should not be any problems.

------------------
Johnny
[]xxxxxx[]=============>

Samurai6 · Nov 28, 1999

The other drawback to Talonite is that it is softer than steel. It seems to work well on blades with thick edges, but for a blade to really cut, the edge needs to be as thin as the material will allow. The best cutting blades I own have almost no secondary edge bevel. Traditionally sharpened Finnish Puukos have virtually no secondary edge bevel, and traditional chisel grinds also. In my opinion, Talonite is simply not strong enough to support such edges.

It can still work in thin blades if you don't cut anything hard with it. I have a David Boye folder with a Cobalt blade. It has a very thin edge, and it is working fine for me as long as I am careful with it. But I would never cut anything with a thin cross-section made out of moderately hard material like plastic. Concentrating a lot of lateral force on a small section of the edge would cause significant damage.

Will Fennell · Nov 28, 1999

Steve,
I follow the theory, and thats what I thought too. But its not whats happening so far in my testing[field use]. I have not stressed the talonite blades to failure, but the Cetan that I've been using for about 8 months now is holding up real well. The edge is approx. .0210", sharpened at approx.17 degree bevel.

I have been using it primarily skinning animals[including boning out most of the meat], some food prep[around the hunting camp], and some basic hunting chores[cutting shooting bambo shooting sticks, rope, etc.]. I have done 19 whitetails and 5 wild hogs so far[including boning most of the meat]. No chips, no rolled edges. The best part is, when you FINALLY get it too dull to keep you happy, it sharpens very easily on a sharpmaker or spyderco 'white stone'.

I am VERY impressed to say the least. Granted, these are skinning/utility chores, not chopping and prying duties, but that is what the particular knife was designed for.

Maybe I'm being careful without thinking about it

. I'll let my Dad use it, he can tear up anything.

All I'm saying is that its been a helluva cutter so far, and it hasn't proven too 'delicate' for field use under these conditions,....so far. Testing will continue.....

This is the BEST part of the knife business!

------------------
Stay Sharp!
Will Fennell
Camillus Cutlery

Joe Talmadge · Nov 28, 1999

Well, the two problems I've seen were both in the "lab" (or garage) rather than the field. Both were based on using that soft talonite with thin edge on hard materials. In one case it was cutting hard plastic (Steve's), and in the other it was chopping hard wood (mine).

Point taken that these were both strictly lab failures, but in this case I definitely believe that for certain uses, you better make sure your edge is a bit thicker than usual.

I still think this is a great material, and my talonite TTKK is still the most-used custom knife that I own. I've decided to keep the edge very thin, since I really like the performance, I'll just reach for another knife if I need to really work the edge hard.

Joe

Tom Carey · Nov 28, 1999

I used mine quite a bit on pallet banding. The plastic variety of course. This is a very tough plastic to cut and had none of the problems described. What was that piece of plastic that you ran into trouble with Steve?

Regards,

Tom Carey

Fuzz Leonard · Nov 29, 1999

Opinions on the stuff as a sword material?

Rob Simonich · Nov 29, 1999

Looks like you guys have pretty much said it all. I concur that the biggest drawback to Talonite is price. The rockwell hardness is one much discussed with this material. I have done a bunch of Rockwell testing at it runs 47 to 49 Rc. Now a piece of steel at this hardness can be easily cut with a sharp file. A sharp file will slide right off Talonite. Its the carbides that cause this. Weird huh!

On the subject of edge rolling and bending, that is not a problem when the edge is supported, ans as Will has said, he experiances no problems with his knife in that area. I grind the edge to about .020 and then sharpen, and the edge is durable. Not being steel, it has to be handled a bit differently in a knife than steel. Almost every customer that I have talked to say the Talonite cuts easier than their steel knives, so I have no problem grinding them a bit thicker, and it seems the users dont mind either. I have not had one cutomer bring up the secondary edge thickness issue.

I have seen the knife that was ground to almost zero on the secondary and failed the plastic pop bottle test. The knife was ground like a steel knife, very thin, and this wouldnt have happened if it had a bit more edge support. That was my fault as I had not discussed this issue with the maker. So you guys have pretty much summed it up.

Me? I love the stuff and so do most who are using it. I have several hundred Talonite knives on order if that means anything! To me it does!

------------------
www.simonichknives.com

JoHnYKwSt · Nov 29, 1999

If it's anything, the rockwell test tells us that at 47-49Rc, talonite will dent easier than the harder steels.

A forum member a while back had problems with his 440V going dull rather quickly due to rolling when he hit a staple. (I believe it was Outlaw_dogboy, sorry if i mispelled your name

) I'd be interested in how Talonite holds up when it hits a staple. Anyone tried this?

Even if the edge rolls or dents, it should still cut rather well due to talonite's slipperyness.

------------------
Johnny
[]xxxxxx[]=============>

BladeMan · Nov 29, 1999

Rob,
what do you mean with edge support?
how do you grind you knives, hollow or flat?
and how thick do you leave the edge on a hollow, flat grind

Ray

Chefget · Nov 29, 1999

The Talonite knife that I had the opportunity to use in the kitchen was surprisingly effective. Though I was not cutting particularly hard materials (with the exception of splitting lobsters), the knife cut like few others. My reference standards are 01 steel knives, sharp as razors.

I was truly impressed with the Talonite knife. I can't comment on sharpening, though. Even though Nick (a chef in CA) used the knife for several weeks in his kitchen, and I several weeks in mine (both commercial kitchens), neither of us felt the need to sharpen this knife! (I know, I know, I wouldn't believe it either!)

If only I could get MY Simonich Talonite "Gettier" model chef knife (sniff...sniff..)

-Michael

------------------
Chefget's Knife Page

storyville · Nov 30, 1999

Will and Tom -- ah, the price factor... (I shouldve excluded price as a possible answer...!)

Johnny and Steve Harvey -- could you say a little more about what youve been doing to get the edge to roll or dent? Ive read one other reference to this, but cannot find it. However, concurring with Wills experience, Ron Hood offered eye-opening comments some months back which strongly suggested that the RC readings for Talonite are misleading. In brief, his Talonite Kanji was subjected to severe edge-wearing, housebuilding chores (tarpaper, tin, and the like), yet still came through very sharp after *three days*. The construction guys stopped using the comparison A2 Mean Street before the end of the second day, as its edge was literally unusable. He wrote:

In day three I took the blades back. The Kanji was a bit worn, the Busse was scratched. The kanji edge had rolled some but had not lost it's ability to cut freehanging paper. The A2 wouldn't cut a *art. I spent the better part of an hour bringing the Busse back. The Kanji just needed a quick go with a steel.

Ron Hoods comments suggest that the Talonite didnt dent or roll *before* a steel would but, rather, it experienced relatively insignificant rolling far beyond the point that the A2 completely lost its edge. Michael Gettier and Nick Blinoffs experiences (referred to above and posted previously by Walt Welch -- lobster night!) are also very striking.

Also, my earlier ref to 440V was poorly phrased. I simply meant to indicate that, even in the mid-50s RC, 440V still lacks toughness relative to D2, for example. So one of the characteristics of 440V is that you get great edge-holding, but at the expense of toughness. Talonite appears to be far tougher than 440V, but is there a similar trade-off in another area? (price aside for the moment ...)

...And Rob, Im not trying to badmouth Talonite -- amidst that pile of hundreds youre working on is MY order!

Glen

Allen Blade · Nov 29, 1999

Hello ,

Well after grinding Talonite a bit now i have only one Complaint. IT EATS BELTS ALIVE!!!!! I am using the Norton Hogger Ceramic belts and it takes 2 of them to
Flat grind a 4 inch Drop point blade on the MEUK series knives i am making.

I can Rough grind 24 hot rolled annealed
1095 1/4 by 7 Inch long blades with those same two belts, if that gives you an idea of its wear resistance.

I love the Material myself, i am Going to make myself(when i get a chance) a MEUK-1
blade and one of my COMBAT PATROL BOWIES in the 9 to 10 inch blade range for my Standard Wilderness carry blades.

The Talonite material is Excellent for a
extreme cutting smaller utility knife and the bigger knife for whatever else i would need to Chop or eliminate in the deep woods.

The Cost of the TALONITE is not a problem if you think about how many other small bladed knives you would have to buy and combine to get the same level of performance that you get out of 1 Talonite blade(depending on Alloy of course).

I also like the fact that is is pretty much maintenance free, except for the occasional sharpening required. I have done as Rob Simonich has different ways to get it to Corrode, no such Luck,

I would go as far as to say TALONITE is RUST PROOF!! not just rust resistant.

Its a bear to grind, but the results are worth it in my opinion.

just my .02

Allen Blade

Samurai6 · Nov 29, 1999

I recently tested a Talonite blade with a thin edge. It was the sort of edge that I dream about having on a steel blade, the sort of edge one finds on Sebenzas, Bob Dozier, and David Boye knives. It was a couple of months ago, but you can probably still find the thread over on the Knifeforums Test forum, entitled Tough on Talonite. I was cutting through the bottom of a plastic soda bottle with it. The cut sheared off to the side at a slight angle as plastic will tend to do, and it peeled the edge right off of the blade. A strip of Talonite about 3/32 wide and 2" long was laying at the bottom of the bottle. I was able to repeat that test with a Talonite blade with thicker edge geometry, and it suffered no damage at all. Up until the time it failed, the thin Talonite blade cut very well, but not any better than a steel knife with similar edge geometry.

I kind of equate Talonite with ceramic. Ceramic makes a great blade too, but you have to keep the edge a little thicker and stronger to avoid chipping. As long as you do, and you stay away from hard materials, you've got a great knife. The fact remains though that you have to give up some potential cutting efficiency in exchange for the corrosion immunity and wear resistance that Talonite offers. If all of a person's knives are of the thick-edged "tactical" variety, a person will probably never notice the compromise in cutting efficiency. Once you have known the wonder of a knife that really cuts though, it's a little harder compromise to make.

JoHnYKwSt · Nov 29, 1999

storyville,

I simply meant to indicate that, even in the mid-50s RC, 440V still lacks toughness relative to D2, for example. So one of the characteristics of 440V is that you get great edge-holding, but at the expense of toughness. Talonite appears to be far tougher than 440V, but is there a similar trade-off in another area? (price aside for the moment ...)

There is almost always a trade-off with one material vs another. 440V vs D2 there are many advantages and disadvantages of each. 440V might be more abrasion resistant and corrosion resistant; while D2 might be more tougher and harder. And it is not even as simple as that.

Talonite is a very new material with very little testing and real world usage compared to the other steels. Everyone is still learning.

I have never used Talonite. My thoughts about the rolling and denting originates from it's low hardness. People say Talonite does not act like it is 47Rc. And I realize this. But if you think of the rockwell test strictly as a test, as in a diamond cone under constant pressure pushing against the material, and the resulting dent is the indication of how easily the material dents then that should tell you something.

I'm not bad-mouthing talonite either. Quite the contrary, it's strengths far outweigh it's weaknesses.

------------------
Johnny
[]xxxxxx[]=============>

Kit Carson · Nov 30, 1999

Hi guys. Sorry for not replying to this message earlier. I just missed it.

I can sit here and say that I probably have more satisfied customers using 6K (Stellite) and 6BH (Talonite) than anyone. I've been making knives with them, primarily 6K, for over 10 years. Never had one returned because a customer wasn't satisfied with it's edge holding or toughness.

I hollow grind them deep, on a 10" wheel, down to about .025 and leave enough material behind the edge to keep it strong.

Drawbacks? Cost, and, for the maker, difficulty to work it. You can't bandsaw it, so to get a blade, it has to be ground from profile. To put a hole in it, better have a good, sharp carbide drill bit. These things are what add to the final costs.

It's not the ultimate blade material. We'll probably still be looking for that through the next century.

It's tough, cuts forever and when it dulls, it's easy to resharpen, and won't rust. Seems like that's a pretty good combination to me.

Cliff Stamp · Nov 30, 1999

Allen, if you ever get around to making a large Talonite blade I would be very interested in your experiences with it.

Kit what do you mean by tough?

-Cliff

Marion David Poff · Nov 30, 1999

Just as a side note, if you are interested in the V steels speak to Phil Wilson, he has some information that is interesting to say the least.

------------------
Marion David Poff aka Eye mdpoff@hotmail.com
Coeur D'Alene, ID
http://www.geocities.com/mdpoff

An interesting business oppurtunity... http://www.geocities.com/selouss

"We will either find a way, or make one." Hannibal, 210 B.C.

Talonites drawbacks?

storyville

Will Fennell

Tom Carey

JoHnYKwSt

Samurai6

Will Fennell

Joe Talmadge

Tom Carey

Fuzz Leonard

Rob Simonich

Big Bear

JoHnYKwSt

BladeMan

Lhotak Knives

Chefget

storyville

Allen Blade

Samurai6

JoHnYKwSt

Kit Carson

Cliff Stamp

Marion David Poff

Talonites drawbacks?

Big Bear

Lhotak Knives

Talonites drawbacks?