Talonite compared to H1...

alejandrino

alejandrino

Joined
May 16, 2006
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I understand both are rustproof and do not require heat treating. Talonite or cobalt also is quite expensive. Comparatively speaking as knives, which would be a better knife as far as edge holding, toughness, etc..??
 
As far as I know the toughness of talonite is pathetic. H1 - as any other steel - requires heat treating indeed.
 
Redguy said:
As far as I know the toughness of talonite is pathetic. H1 - as any other steel - requires heat treating indeed.
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What is your experience with talonite that drew you to this conclusion. No criticism here, I have limited use with the steel and would like to know what experiences you have had with it.
 
barrabas74 said:
What is your experience with talonite that drew you to this conclusion. No criticism here, I have limited use with the steel and would like to know what experiences you have had with it.
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To tell you the truth I don't have personal experiences with this material, but I have a friend, who works in a toolshop. They just had to change the knives in their lathes from stellite (quite similar to talonite) to powdermetallurgical HSS from Böhler-Uddeholm due to the tremendous amount of breakage and chipping. He - being a knife person too - tried to experiment with the leftover talonite blades and found them very fragile.
Mick Strider and other knifemakers also mentioned that talonite has good edgeholding capabilities and resists rust very well, but it's toughness is far from adequate.
 
I have a REKAT Talonite folder which chipped extensively with even light use. It ended up in a drawer and there it sits today.
 
I would expect the largest differences to be in the edge they can take and how they hold their edges under what conditions. Talonite contains HUGE carbides and the rest is AFAIK pretty soft. H-1 seems pretty fine-grained and the edge was tested to be very hard. So less rolling and higher edge stability and finer edges on the H-1 I would suspect, but I haven't used Talonite.
 
Talonite/Stellite, is only 40- 45rc, so that might explain the dilemma. What is H1's Rockwell?
 
samhain73 said:
Talonite/Stellite, is only 40- 45rc, so that might explain the dilemma. What is H1's Rockwell?
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Somewhere here, I read the serrated blades can measure in the mid 60's and the plain edge was lower (around upper 50's) (*just a guess on this:confused: ) The more you work/sharpen it, the harder it will become. One day Sal will put some h-1 it a handle I like, and I'll give it a try. I have a salt 1 and it's ok, but I really don't care for the handle.
 
wwells20 said:
The more you work/sharpen it, the harder it will become. One day Sal will put some h-1 it a handle I like, and I'll give it a try. I have a salt 1 and it's ok, but I really don't care for the handle.
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Can anyone verify this with actual hardness testing? This has been floating around for a while, and I cant quite wrap my mind around why this steel would work harden when sharpened as opposed to any other steels, which also work harden within the limits of thier ductility. There are some 1018 type steels used to make knives occasionally, and I would expect these to show an increase in edge holding as sharpening progresses, but I have not read about it anywhere. If it happens to a noticable degree, I suppose it would be due to a difference in work hardening rate. H1 sounds like a stainless that work hardens at a much faster rate than standard cutlery steels, similar to 302 and 303 stainless steels.
 
Me2, I can't verify this but I sure others will comply, H-1 is work harding and will get better over time. When it's put it a handle i want to use, I will be the first to let everyone know of the "work harding" of H-1.
 
wwells20 said:
H-1 is work harding and will get better over time.
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Not to be a PITA, but thats my point. H-1 work hardens, so does every other steel, although the change in hardness and hardening rate can be drastically different. In my above example, the 1018 steel has lots of room to work harden and therefore improve in performance, if this phenomenon actually occurs to a meaningful degree. Some of the common low alloy steels, such as 5160, and the 10xx series can be tempered well above the normal values for blades, leaving them quite soft. However, I dont think any amount of cold work done while sharpening will make them into a better blade. Of course, this is theory, since I havent actually tried it. I'm basically waiting for the only major manufacturer that uses H-1, and has a presence on BF, to provide some clarity. (nudges Sal under the table)
 
From what I have read, the SE H1 knives edge is at 68 RC, the PE is at around 65 RC, from the factory. In fact, the SE H1 blades I have read have very similar edge retention to SE VG-10, while the PE falls way behind VG-10 in PE form. I would guess the additional grinding to form the SE account for the difference in hardness (and performance), so I would think there is a fairly quick rate of work hardening in this steel. Not sure how much sharpening it takes to see a significant rockwell difference, but it would be interesting to see some testing results. I still haven't tried it out yet, but would like to.
 
I am another one who has been interested in H1 but has yet to try it. That will be remedied when I buy one of the Spydie Salts soon, probably in SE.

Assuming a PE H1 blade is inferior to VG10 in edge holding, it would need to be sharpened more frequently, which should result in better edge retention through gradual work hardening.

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Spyderco is coming out with the Ed Schemmp 7-1/2" chopper which, if I understand correctly, will be in H1 steel. This suggests the steel might be fairly tough for a stainless. I would be curious to see Charpy test results.
 
gunmike1 said:
From what I have read, the SE H1 knives edge is at 68 RC, the PE is at around 65 RC, from the factory. In fact, the SE H1 blades I have read have very similar edge retention to SE VG-10, while the PE falls way behind VG-10 in PE form. I would guess the additional grinding to form the SE account for the difference in hardness (and performance), so I would think there is a fairly quick rate of work hardening in this steel. Not sure how much sharpening it takes to see a significant rockwell difference, but it would be interesting to see some testing results. I still haven't tried it out yet, but would like to.
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The hardness you mention is only attainable after heavy use. It starts out at about 58 RC and as you use it the hardness increases. To acheive the high end of hardness you need to run it through a few dozen feet of cardboard.
 
According to Sal, the blades are rolled to around 58 Rc and even Spyderco had intially no clue it would behave like this. Tests later showed that the edge continued to be workhardened during the grinding and no, they don't need to be run through cardboard first.

As to why H-1 is different than other bladesteels. Well, it is a steel that hardens by a completely different process than regular bladesteels to begin with. As Sal said it is not heattreated. It is a precipitation hardening steel and as far as I have been able to read up, precipitation hardening steels are meant to be hardened by rolling (workhardening). They are used extensively these days in automobile construction.

The only disadvantage I see with H-1 is on heavily abrasive materials and Cliff's test show that pretty clearly, I think. H-1 is simply not that abrasion resistant which also the reason why sharpening and reprofiling in particular are a breeze in comparison to some other steels.
 
h1 is like aluminum, it gets harder/stronger when it deforms, or when heated i suppose. i think many austenitic grades work like this, for instance the "hadfield"-steel. talonite has about the same strenght as 6al4ti. i have a piece if talonite that i will make 2 knives of, i´ll see how it works out, however i have a feeling its on par toughnesswise (considering the strenght) with most martensitic ss. time will tell.
 
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