Talonite vs. 420V?????

akula57 · Oct 14, 1999

Don't know why 420V gets so little press compared to 440V - IMO its better and probably the best steel.

But I've never compared to talonite. Any opinions??????

Don G · Oct 14, 1999

I'll be very curious to hear the responses to this.

storyville · Oct 14, 1999

Might want to check out the 420V current thread here in the General Forum, if you haven't yet seen it -- interesting insights by some knowledgeable folks.

Akula57 -- what kind of criteria are you interested in? I don't have either metals, so am also curious.

Talonite is apparently impervious to natural corrosion, although for anyone who takes care of his/her tools I doubt that it makes much more than "theoretical" difference vis-a-vis 420V's high corrosion resistance.

Edge-holding?...

Toughness?... I've seen it posted on the Forum that the gobs of Vanadium in 420V and 440V dramatically improve their edge-holding over 420C and 440C, but not their toughness. Maybe folks who know can elaborate?

Glen

------------------
"(Those who fail to re-read are obliged to read the same story everywhere)..." -Roland Barthes

Samurai6 · Oct 14, 1999

420V:
More edge durability(toughness) when abused. Capable of taking a fine scalpel-like edge.

Talonite:
Much more stain resistance, maybe somewhat better wear resistance. Fair toughness. Takes a very useful, toothy edge, but not quite razor-like.

Edge holding might be pretty close between these two.

[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 14 October 1999).]

Walt Welch · Oct 14, 1999

Jeez, Harv, I don't know where you got the data to say that you would guarantee 420V to be a tougher material than Talonite (r).

Toughness was an issue with which Tom Walz and Rob Simonich were concerned. It has turned out to be a non issue in real life. Kit Carson told me he has made many U-2 dive knives out of Stellite 6 BH, which is the same alloy as Talonite (r), except the Talonite (r) is hot rolled and age hardened, and he has never had one returned due to blade failure.

I am unaware of any of Rob's many fixed blades having been returned for blade failure.

None of my several Talonite (r) blades have failed in the slightest, but as everyone knows, I keep them in my sock drawer, wrapped in Tuf-Cloths

.

Anyway, I am sending you the Darrel Ralph custom Talonite (r) folder soon, so you can put a Talonite (r) blade to real world testing and get back to the forum with the results.

Keep an eye on your front porch. Walt

bald1 · Oct 14, 1999

Harv,

I'm with Walt

! The CPM420V is a notch up from CPM440V but in toughness primarily. Edge holding is supposed to be about the same. Having had CPM440V blades for over 5 years and Talonite(r) for over a year, I give a big nod to the Talonite for edge holding including having it razor sharp. Some in the know have indicated that the Talonite is capable of a better super sharp edge than Stellite but I have no personal experience.

Toughness? Remember the picture of Rob Simonich bending a piece of stock into a big "U"???? Then Stephen Dick just beat the dickens out of a 10" blade chopper Rob made to test the envelope.

Bottom line is that Talonite is quickly establishing itself as a material to be reckoned with. Given a choice between CPM440V or 420V for that matter and Talonite, my nod goes to the big T every time

!!!

------------------
-=[Bob Allman]=-

I did NOT escape from the institution! They gave me a day pass!

BFC member since the very beginning
Member: American Knife & Tool Institute
......... Varmint Hunters Association
......... National Rifle Association
......... Praire Thunder Inc.
......... Rapid City Rifle Club
......... Spearfish Rifle & Pistol Club
pending: Buck Collectors Club
Certified Talonite(r) enthusiast!

[This message has been edited by bald1 (edited 14 October 1999).]

JoHnYKwSt · Oct 14, 1999

I believe vanadium will increase hardness, toughness, as well as corrosion resistance. Having more vanadium should should deter chromium carbides from forming, so they can do their job, and that is resist stain. 420V seems better than 440V in every way, but is harder to work, which is probably why the production companies, mainly Spyderco, isn't using it. 420V seems like an excellent steel, maybe the best stainless steel for a knife. It has its downfalls but they aren't that great.

As for talonite....I'll leave that to the experts.

------------------
Johnny
[]xxxxxx[]=============>

Samurai6 · Oct 14, 1999

Walt,

I decided my post was too long-winded, and I deleted most of it while you were replying. So people are going to be wondering what you are talking about. Sorry.

I was extrapolating an idea of Talonite toughness from my own experience with Boye Dendritic Cobalt and from Cliff and Joe's reports about Talonite. I know Talonite is a stronger alloy than Stellite, but it would have to be a whole different animal to be in the same league with 420V in terms of potential toughness. From what I have seen so far, 420V is at least as tough as A-2.

The notion of toughness is a tricky one to talk about though. There is the toughness that allows materials to bend without breaking, and then there is the toughness that allows materials to flex without bending. I don't know if Talonite can be made into a serviceable spring, but I don't believe so.

But I was extrapolating, which is why I cut back my post. I believe 420V is tougher than Talonite in terms of edge durability, but only in a relative sense, not to say that Talonite isn't appropriate for applications that require toughness, vis-a-vis the Simonich Talonite chopper in Tactical Knives and Kit Carson's dive knives.

Really looking forward to comparing the two Apogees. I love my Apogee, and I am dying to write about it. The Talonite Apogee will make the perfect comparison and contrast partner for a review.

And I'm with both you guys! Right now CPM420V and Talonite are looking like the premier blade materials to me. Might have to figure CPM3V into the equation here pretty soon too though.

[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 14 October 1999).]

Cliff Stamp · Oct 15, 1999

Talonite is not in the same league as steel in terms of strength. Rob Simonich has commented on this before, that it is easier to deform and will break at a lower angle as compared to ATS-34 :

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000844.html

Ron Hood has made strong statements about the durability and strength of Talonite in the past (saying its better than Busse's A2 regarding the edge durability). However just recently on his forum he has sort of backed off on this :

http://server2.ezboard.com:8080/fhoodlumsbladeware.showMessage?topicID=26.topic&index=6

The specific quote, as threads are not perm. there :

[the I he refers to is Rob]

The only claim that I, or you, have made for talonite is it's superior edge retention and ability to resist staining.

No mention of strength / durability at all.

-Cliff

Walt Welch · Oct 15, 1999

Extrapolating??? You HAVE been hanging with Cliff, haven't you, Harv?

Walt Welch · Oct 15, 1999

OK, you asked for it. For the first time ever in public, some real life experience with Talonite (r) knives. Michael Gettier and Nick Blinoff, both professional chefs, have been evaluating prototype Talonite (r) chef's knives. Here is what Nick Blinoff had to say (this and following quotes are from e-mails to me; some snipping of entire paragraphs has been done to delete extraneous material):

I've been using this gorgeous piece of art for two weeks now. I have used this knife for everything that I would normally use my large chef's knife for, as a matter of fact I put my old knife into retirement and have used Rob's knife exclusively.

I have used this knife for a variety of cutting chores, including:
Fish... maybe a dozen or so whole salmon, swordfish, halibut, ahi tuna, opah, whitefish, sea bass, mahi, etc.
Vegetables ad naseum
Frenching lamb racks and veal chops
Portioning Beef filets, pork loins
Disjointing chicken and ducks
Detail work (chiffonade of fine herbs, julienne cuts, zesting citrus fruits
I have used this knife with no holds barred, and I'll tell you, each time that I pick it up I still get a charge out of it. The knife has a rock solid feel to it that is incomparable to any knife I've ever used. It has a comfortable heft to it and the balance is great.

Rob hit a home run with the shape of the blade. It has a belly on it that attacks the work area, and the height of the blade makes it easy to guide with the knuckles for repetitive chopping jobs.

How's the Talonite going, you ask? Well, like I said, I've used this knife heavily for the past two weeks, and while it doesn't still have that scary sharp edge that it came with out of the box, it is still plenty sharp, shaving paper or zesting citrus easily. I hadn't asked what the proper technique is to care for the Talonite blade, so it has only received the occasional gentle passes on my ceramic steel. I didn't expect that the scary sharp original edge would last too long, and it didn't... it was just too sharp. I don't think that two weeks are enough to fully evaluate the performance of the Talonite, I'll have to wait and fall into a pattern to see how often I'm going to need to touch the knife up on my Edge-Pro. Initially, however, I am impressed with the edge that I still have after two weeks of intense usage.

When Nick sent the 'dull' knife to Michael Gettier for evaluation, here is what Michael had to say:

Nick, I was suprised to hear that you had not sharpened the blade. When
unpacking the knife I found out why you hadn't! This is sharp! It is
also suprising how the knife responds to a steel. Using a smooth, flat,
grooved steel, the edge is brought back to laser within 2-3 strokes.
Wouldn't talonite be resistant to steeling?

After using the knife for a while, here is what Michael added:

As to the knife; when Nick first told me he had not yet sharpened the
knife, my immediate reaction was "gonna have to put an edge on this
puppy"...but this was not this case. After using the knife for a week
(including "Lobster Night"), the blade still needs no sharpening. What
is just as suprising to me is how responsive the edge is to a steel.
Several strokes and it is back to laser.

Even though I prefer a smaller profile knife this piece is a pleasure to
use. Rob, I don't know how one decides on the actual curve of the blade
(careful study? intuitive guessing? dumb luck?) but I can find no room
for improvement on this blade. Each and every chef knife has a different
feel; this is one of the most natural feeling knives I have used.

Rob is setting up a run of these knives. There are two sizes, and two styles. The Blinoff is slightly larger in the choil area in the spine to edge dimension. Contact Rob for further information, or hopefully the MAN himself will check in with further information.

I think that the initial experiences with Talonite (r) in a chef's knife suggest strongly that toughness, while perhaps not as great as some steels, is more than sufficient for rugged use.

Respectfully submitted, Walt

JoHnYKwSt · Oct 15, 1999

OK here's my take on talonite. Let's not even include blade toughness in regards to prying. We're talking strictly hardness here. Talonite is ~45Rc(?). The carbides suspended in the matrix of talonite may be 75Rc or it can be 100Rc but the fact is that it tested at ~45Rc(?). The rockwell test by definition is something impacting the material and the more the material deforms the lower the hardness. My guess is, if talonite was used for cutting hard materials, the edge would roll and dent. As for Walts post above, the chefs cut tomatos and potatos all day, talonite it seems would be perfect for this.

------------------
Johnny
[]xxxxxxx]=============>

storyville · Oct 15, 1999

Hi Johnny -- there are a few threads floating around on talonite (Cliff Stamp seems to have them all at his finger tips). As you may well have heard before, the RC #s are really quite deceptive for Talonite. I have no experience w/it but look fwd to the opportunity (have a Talonite blade on order). In any case, Talonite appears to keep an extremely durable edge *precisely* w/regards to hard materials, according to various reliable accounts. Rob Simonich has commented in a prior thread that it chews thru hard, dry pine knots like bubblegum. Also, as I read the Blinoff and Gettier pssgs above, it appears to me that they're doing alot more than slicing tomatoes and potatoes. Blinoff notes using the knife exclusively. After *several weeks* of cutting thru bone in 2 restaurant kitchens it still required no sharpening, even after "lobster night"... THAT sounds to me like a lot more punishment than most knives see in a year's worth of hunting trips. Yes, no?

My .02 --
Glen

------------------
The piano has been drinking -Tom Waits

Walt Welch · Oct 15, 1999

Well, Talonite (r) outlasted tungsten carbide in a test in a factory where slicer knives were cutting out cardboard boxes for cereal. The Talonite (r) outlasted the WC by 30%.

The Rc of Talonite (r) is misleading, as it is a hard facing alloy. That means that the alloy exposed by blade wear is just as hard as the edge which was worn away. This is in stark contrast to the hard edge, soft center of most steel knives.

The concern Tom, Rob, and I had concerning the chef's knives was concerning toughness, especially to lateral load, not hardness or edge wear. Note that sharpening instructions were (purposely) not supplied to the chefs, to simulate what would happen should an owner, say, buy a number of these knives and just give them to his chefs.

That there were no problems with toughness, and sharpening was both easy and infrequent seems obvious from the comments of Nick and Michael.

The stuff works. Walt

PS; bald1; what do you think of the chef's knives as Christmas presents? WW

tom mayo · Oct 15, 1999

a few thought....my attention span is WAY to short for any of those long posts...cant even hang long enough to read them through. talonite is pretty tough....it bends rather than breaks....the v steels..especially 420. take the finest sharpest edge i have ever seen in 20+ years of being facinated with knives....440v is a little on the brittle side..but not some much that i dont use it for hunting knives consistantly. talonite wont rust...that is very very good...but it also costs over $150 PER LB...that is very very bad....i hope rob isnt driving a range rover...sincerely.

------------------
http://www.mayoknives.com

bald1 · Oct 15, 1999

Walt,

Talonite kitchen knives would indeed make great Christmas gifts. But, alas, I'm afraid that Rob's current book has a queue that would equate to Christmas 2000 not 1999

!

All,

Tom Mayo's post, reflecting his experiences as a knifemaker using the materials in question, I feel is extremely informative:

- Talonite is pretty tough... bends rather than breaks
- CPM420V exhibits the finest super sharp edge among the 3
- CPM440V tends to be brittle

Combine Tom's observations with those of us who have used any or all and you'll fine that edge retention and corrosion resistance are big pluses for Talonite. Yet it is plenty tough for all but the most severely punishing of tests (note I don't say applications

). The CPM materials too have much to be lauded for and their virtues have also been expounded upon. As a group they're in a class by themselves period.

As I stated before, evaluate your needs/desires and mate the material which most closely meets them. Talonite trips my trigger on all but the biggest knives simply because I (1) haven't tried a BIG Talonite blade, and (2) I'm amored with genuine Nepalese khukris in zone treated 5160 for chopping tasks. Doesn't mean my other knives with blades of everything from A2 to dendritic D2 aren't great and with their particular designs capable out outstanding performance. It just means for me, when choices are to be made, Talonite is rarely far from number one on my list.

------------------
-=[Bob Allman]=-

I did NOT escape from the institution! They gave me a day pass!

BFC member since the very beginning
Member: American Knife & Tool Institute
......... Varmint Hunters Association
......... National Rifle Association
......... Praire Thunder Inc.
......... Rapid City Rifle Club
......... Spearfish Rifle & Pistol Club
pending: Buck Collectors Club (prime interest: 532s)
Certified Talonite(r) enthusiast!

[This message has been edited by bald1 (edited 15 October 1999).]

JoHnYKwSt · Oct 16, 1999

Talonite tests at 45Rc. The rockwell test, to put it crudely is something hitting the material and the bigger the dent, the lower the rockwell. It doesn't matter how hard the carbides are, the material tested at 45Rc, which is soft when we are talking about knives. So, if it is used to cut hard materials, I figure the edge would roll or dent. This is how I see it anyway, have never used the stuff.

------------------
Johnny
[]xxxxxxx]=============>

Walt Welch · Oct 16, 1999

Johnny; that is what we were concerned about as well, so that is why we tried Talonite (r) out in a real world environment. Walt

RKnight · Oct 16, 1999

I don't own own one of these wonder blades.

But, slicing/chopping vegetables in a kitchen does not seem like intensive use. Perhaps it's ideal for that. Nice clean cut leaving no taint of steel.

Frankly, I'm only concerned with it's devastating abililty on human flesh. And ease of reshapening to a devastating edge. I see knives as weapons, perhaps you don't.

The only advantage I see is that it is cold rolled, removing the heat treat aspect from the equasion which many makers screw up thereby rendering their efforts useless.

I am less likely to jump on the thrill of new materials than to rely on proven materials like tool steel.

I have the same opinion about guns, proven reliability. The new materials are indeed exciting, but I'll wait till all the results are in, opinions and speculation (and this forum is stuffed with that) just won't do.

I am unwilling to experiment with unproven materials and methods when it comes to weapons, which is what I consider a knife to be.

Of course there's the gee whiz factor which my friends aren't really interested in.

When I show a knife to an experienced friend into martial arts, they don't ask about the the material they look at the edge and geometry for it's ability to render someone helpless. They are not impressed with blue anodized ti liners or unproven materials.

------------------
Regards,
Ron Knight

Yeah I'm crazy, but what do you want me to do about it

Cliff Stamp · Oct 18, 1999

Johnny :

[low RC of Talonite]

I figure the edge would roll or dent.

Does Talonite have the strength and toughness to handle hard high energy impacts? All the evidence I have seen says otherwise. To be specific, on the Talonite webpage it describes a piece of *unground* stock being pushed past the plastic deformation barrier by hand - that indicates low strength. Rob Simonich has confirmed this as well, describing Talonite has being weaker than ATS-34 and fracturing at a lower angle.

As for Chef's knives, one of Phil Wilson's steel choices for that is AISI 420. Anybody want to use that as a reason to make a large bowie out of it?

-Cliff