Tamahagane and Katana Construction

M

me2

Joined
Oct 11, 2003
Messages
5,098
I was reading over the Wikipedia article on sword making in Japan. They go through the process of making tamahagane and explain how the smith sorts the steel by apparent carbon content from ease of forging and breaking etc. Then they say something I had a question about.

In several of the references, they say the harder, high carbon steel is used for the outer skin, while the softer steel is used for the core. This seems backward to me. It's also backward from modern laminated blades by Cold Steel and Falkniven. Are katanas really made with hard skins on the sides and edge, with soft steel in the center of the spine?
 
me2 said:
In several of the references, they say the harder, high carbon steel is used for the outer skin, while the softer steel is used for the core. This seems backward to me. It's also backward from modern laminated blades by Cold Steel and Falkniven. Are katanas really made with hard skins on the sides and edge, with soft steel in the center of the spine?
Click to expand...

Yes.

The soft core acts as a shock absorber.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Are they all made this way, or are some made from the same piece of steel, just edge hardened and left with a soft spine? I'm speaking of the traditional ones. I know there are modern ones made like that.
 
me2 said:
Are they all made this way, or are some made from the same piece of steel, just edge hardened and left with a soft spine? I'm speaking of the traditional ones. I know there are modern ones made like that.
Click to expand...

Soft core, harder outer flanks and even harder edge component, with as many as five or six separate steels being hammer welded together form some of the more complex blade compositions. Fascinating stuff to be sure, but all that hammer welding did occasionally lead to undetected weld failures.

As I understand it, significant variation exists with regards to the complexity of the blades, the quality of the steel, the form of heat treatment and the cost and level of complexity of the hilt and mountings. Certainly not all of the swords carried into major conflicts of medieval Japan had the same level of skill lavished upon them as the better examples now found in museums or private collections. The laminated blades were at their height of refinement in the 12th century, called the "Kamakura" period.

Many of the innovations we usually associate with the Japanese swords (clay hardening, repeated folding/refinings, temper lines) were actually invented in China with the more advanced techniques finding their way into both Korea and Japan, sometimes slowly. Adaptations to the techniques happened as a consequence of the available iron ores, intended use and whether the sword was an individual commission or part of a large order to equip a new army or guard.

We forget that while similar, some of the Korean swords were actually quite excellent, as were many of the original swords from China upon which the quintessential curved, singled edged Japanese swords were based.

Warm regards,

-E
 
Last edited:
me2 said:
I was reading over the Wikipedia article on sword making in Japan. They go through the process of making tamahagane and explain how the smith sorts the steel by apparent carbon content from ease of forging and breaking etc. Then they say something I had a question about.

In several of the references, they say the harder, high carbon steel is used for the outer skin, while the softer steel is used for the core. This seems backward to me. It's also backward from modern laminated blades by Cold Steel and Falkniven. Are katanas really made with hard skins on the sides and edge, with soft steel in the center of the spine?
Click to expand...

From a historical perspective they were not all made this way. Contemporary blades probably are do to the relative low numbers being produced. Go back in time and its a different story. Swords ran the spectrum from being made from a single piece of iron with piece of steel welded to one side, three pieces welded together no folding (hard steel in the middle soft on the outside) to full on folded blades. On average it takes 4 craftsmen about one month to make a folded blade and they are quite expensive. They were also quite expensive back then. In time of war the Lord does not hand out high end expensive swords to cannon fodder and the low ranks. The good swords are saved for the Samurai and the noble class. It was the same in Europe the good eastern blooms were not used for making cheap swords they would have been saved and used for nobility and knights swords.
 
I don't know how much of a consideration this would have been back in the day, but the construction of the sword can affect how your hamon comes out. When the face of the blade is the same steel (such as in kobuse and muku construction), you have much more freedom with the hamon design, and it will come out looking cleaner. When the edge and the face are different steels (such as gyaku kobuse or san mai), you will end up with two hamon-looking lines. One of them will be the true hamon in the transition in between the yakiba and the lower part of the ji, and the other will be the transition between the low-carbon steel of the back (shingane) and the high carbon steel of the edge (hagane). This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it will affect how your blade looks.

- Chris
 
Bors said:
From a historical perspective they were not all made this way. Contemporary blades probably are do to the relative low numbers being produced. Go back in time and its a different story. Swords ran the spectrum from being made from a single piece of iron with piece of steel welded to one side, three pieces welded together no folding (hard steel in the middle soft on the outside) to full on folded blades. On average it takes 4 craftsmen about one month to make a folded blade and they are quite expensive. They were also quite expensive back then. In time of war the Lord does not hand out high end expensive swords to cannon fodder and the low ranks. The good swords are saved for the Samurai and the noble class. It was the same in Europe the good eastern blooms were not used for making cheap swords they would have been saved and used for nobility and knights swords.
Click to expand...

i am told the most common weapon used in battles long ago was a spear. it did not take much steel or even high grade steel. it did not take much skill to handle so farmers and even women did use it.
 
If only the spear got all the press it deserves. I realize I'm wading in deep by using "Deadliest Warrior" as a reference, but every wound produced on the torso dummies by a spear was absolutely terrifying, no matter where the spear came from. Essentially a 3" or more wide cut all the way through. And I've seen some Cold Steel spears pass the famous 1" hanging rope test, so they could slash as well, though certainly not like a sword or axe.
 
You are correct 3 hard boiled eggs the most common weapon on the field from cannon fodder to knights (yes knights) for melania was indeed the spear. Why? one it was relatively inexpensive to produce, effective against horses and allowed one to strike outside the range of most handheld weapons. Are they easy to use .... depends on how you use them, use can range from simple to complex. Remember a spear can also be used as a quarter staff. Swords on the other hand can be quite expensive takings upwards of a month to produce. In the 9th to 11th centuries (northern Europe) a sword of quality could cost as much as 120 head of cattle. Hardly something you wish to risk on the field unless you have to.
 
__________________
Let a man never stir on his road a step
without his weapons of war; for unsure is the knowing when need shall arise of a spear on the way without.

your tag line sounds like where i live. i carry a titanium flashlight with me at night in the day also. its solid and heavy. if and when i need to pop someone in the head with it and the police ask when what did you hit him with i can show a small one cell flashlight.

they do not know its made from titanium and costs 650. almost bullet proof.

i but refuse to say i carry a knife. that is not beagle or legal here a flashlight is.
 
3_hard_boiled_eggs said:
i am told the most common weapon used in battles long ago was a spear.
Click to expand...

+1

bingo. spears are considerably cheaper to produce than swords and require a fraction of the training to become proficient.

the vast, vast, VAST bulk of Samurai never used (or owned) a sword. they were for the exceedingly rich (whose families bought them Katana) or for the exceptionally good Samurai (a Samurai who fought valiantly for his lord might receive a Katana from his lord).
 
erichsen said:
Soft core, harder outer flanks and even harder edge component, with as many as five or six separate steels being hammer welded together form some of the more complex blade compositions. Fascinating stuff to be sure, but all that hammer welding did occasionally lead to undetected weld failures.

As I understand it, significant variation exists with regards to the complexity of the blades, the quality of the steel, the form of heat treatment and the cost and level of complexity of the hilt and mountings. Certainly not all of the swords carried into major conflicts of medieval Japan had the same level of skill lavished upon them as the better examples now found in museums or private collections. The laminated blades were at their height of refinement in the 12th century, called the "Kamakura" period.

Many of the innovations we usually associate with the Japanese swords (clay hardening, repeated folding/refinings, temper lines) were actually invented in China with the more advanced techniques finding their way into both Korea and Japan, sometimes slowly. Adaptations to the techniques happened as a consequence of the available iron ores, intended use and whether the sword was an individual commission or part of a large order to equip a new army or guard.

We forget that while similar, some of the Korean swords were actually quite excellent, as were many of the original swords from China upon which the quintessential curved, singled edged Japanese swords were based.

Warm regards,

-E
Click to expand...


both ways of making a sword is used in history. soft inner part and hard outer part.

i think personally that the best is hard outer and soft inner this has many attributes. a sword made this way can withstand a 30 degree bend with no damage or let me rephrase it our swords can take a 30 degree bend with no damage. as we/Master Rich Chen makes his in the traditional way of soft core and hard high carbon outer part.

i think we must consider the Koreans and their skill and also the Chinese did make good swords 500 years before the Japanese. Master Rich Chen thinks and respects the Japanese for all their work and wants their respect for his work. They have kept the traditions for a thousand years. While the Chinese lost the art of sword making with interior conflicts. Japan has had a stable throne for a thousand years so no reason to kill off the sword makers. Chinese emperors would as a first act kill all the sword makers in China to keep the others from amassing an army to overthrow him. So the Chinese lost the art of sword making being much different from the Japanese.

You may refer to this link here to learn a bit more about the lost art in china:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-yqkda27Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7P_hpTQ_C4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDBkcyitoUc&feature=related
 
Bors said:
You are correct 3 hard boiled eggs the most common weapon on the field from cannon fodder to knights (yes knights) for melania was indeed the spear. Why? one it was relatively inexpensive to produce, effective against horses and allowed one to strike outside the range of most handheld weapons. Are they easy to use .... depends on how you use them, use can range from simple to complex. Remember a spear can also be used as a quarter staff. Swords on the other hand can be quite expensive takings upwards of a month to produce. In the 9th to 11th centuries (northern Europe) a sword of quality could cost as much as 120 head of cattle. Hardly something you wish to risk on the field unless you have to.
Click to expand...

Mr Bors,

I am in the process of making a spear that would be as close to what i can learn about spears used in the olden days. But I do beg you to keep this secret as I want to surprise many with a traditional spear. I know no one will read this but me and you and please honor me with the secret.

I want to replicate a spear that would be used at the time. But in my research I have found many different ones. I am baffled at what to choose. I plan to use Master Rich Chens tamahagane steel to make it. Since we are all just like the common folk of that day we can use and make use of a spear that they did in their day. Hence my endeavors will be of historical use in these times.

I will post a photo of this spear as soon as i can get it finished.

1. traditional design
2. traditional steel.
3. traditional use. kill the man next door. no wait kill the invading army.

thanks
 
me2 said:
I was reading over the Wikipedia article on sword making in Japan. They go through the process of making tamahagane and explain how the smith sorts the steel by apparent carbon content from ease of forging and breaking etc. Then they say something I had a question about.

In several of the references, they say the harder, high carbon steel is used for the outer skin, while the softer steel is used for the core. This seems backward to me. It's also backward from modern laminated blades by Cold Steel and Falkniven. Are katanas really made with hard skins on the sides and edge, with soft steel in the center of the spine?
Click to expand...

Here is a map that shows the progression of the steel making process from China to Korea and Japan. I would think the map is made from history at about 800 years ago. I can not be sure and I invite others to help find the date of the map.

So we can see that tamahagane ( jewel steel ) is not Japanese in origin as many think and will argue the point. You may use in reference the canji wording of tamahagane it is wrote in Chinese. tamahagane is the way Japanese pronounce it. Yu Gan is wrote the same in Chinese but pronounced different as its a different language.
 

Attachments

  • map if tanahagane progression.jpg
    map if tanahagane progression.jpg
    29 KB · Views: 8
3_hard_boiled_eggs said:
Here is a map that shows the progression of the steel making process from China to Korea and Japan. I would think the map is made from history at about 800 years ago. I can not be sure and I invite others to help find the date of the map.

So we can see that tamahagane ( jewel steel ) is not Japanese in origin as many think and will argue the point. You may use in reference the canji wording of tamahagane it is wrote in Chinese. tamahagane is the way Japanese pronounce it. Yu Gan is wrote the same in Chinese but pronounced different as its a different language.
Click to expand...

800 years ago , man, it more earlier than that , about 1300 years ago.
the first TANG DAO(唐刀) that exported from china to japan it is about 1300 years ago .
 
"tamahagane " that is japanese way of pronounation .
"Yu Gan(玉钢) " is chinese way.
as i know , yu gan has a more ealier version , was called "cao gan(草钢)".

hi, man are you still in zu ben 's factory ?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top