Tangs, Rat tail, Chiruwa, and Full.

Yvsa

Yvsa

Joined
May 18, 1999
Messages
15,395
I noticed that Munk in another thread asked about the YCS's tang since I had designed the YCS.
The YCS has the standard tang most other khuks have and if the kami didn't splash water on it during hardening then it will never
fail.
Then a few days ago there was some discussion of tangs and it was concluded that the HI Khuk's have what may be called a "full tang" and I can go along with that description although I feel the term is somewhat confusing.

There's always gonna be discussion and controversy over the type of tangs big knives have it seems.
I imagine the argument has gone on since the beginning of the metal age.
Some like the "Chiruwa" style, I'm one who doesn't, at least not in khukuris. Others like what's now being called in this forum a "Full tang", I'm one who does.
And others a "Rat tail" tang which has been pretty much determined that the H.I.Khuk's do Not have although I think it's cutting semantics as "Rat tail" tangs have been around a whole lot
longer
than the invention of the screw to faciliate screwing a nut on the end to hold the handle and guard in place if indeed that's what it takes to describe a rat tail tang.
(Sorry for the run on sentence, a bad habit of mine.:p)

With that all said I would like to explain why I say the standard HI "Full tang" is just as strong as the HI "Chiruwa" tang and in my opinion stronger.
First and foremost the standard HI "Full tang" is a helluva lot thicker than the HI "Chiruwa" tang's I have seen which I admit have been few.
If the "full tang" was forged to the same thickness as a "chiruwa tang" where the tang and blade intersect I believe the "full tang" would be wider than the "chiruwa tang" since the "full tang" is damned near the same width as the "chiruwa tang" there!
Full width of the "chiruwa tang" would be met a fair distance back if the "full tang" was forged into a "chiruwa tang" so you have the same amount of steel a good ways back and in the form of a stronger thicker piece of steel with the "full tang."
Prying with the standard "full tang" gives you a piece of steel just as thick or maybe a hair thicker than the blade itself and almost as wide as the handle with a generous amount of steel carried back at not too sharp of an angle for quite a ways.
The "chiruwa tang" on the other hand has been forged fairly flat and fairly thin with hopefully no sharp angles at the junction where the blade ends and the tang begins as sharp angles in that juncture would make a really bad weak spot more apt to break than if say 1/8th inch radii were used.
I would have to agree that the "chiruwa tang" is stronger if it was the same thickness as the blade such as the Busse Line of full tang knives where the thicness is the same as the blade and the tang follows the contour of the handle. See where the confusion can come in?
I used the Busse Line as an excellent example of a true full tang knife. There are many other fine examples.
I would also have to agree that the chiruwa tang would be stronger if it were a tapered tang with the same thickness of the blade and gently tapered back to the butt cap as there would be more steel left and none of the the dangerous junctures.

I trust the standard tangs much much more than I do the chiruwa tangs and in the size khuk I like, 16" to 19", they're not as damageing to the hand and wrist while chopping something really hard.

Yvsa, who has given much thought to tangs and what I like and don't like in them.
 
Like Yvsa, I feel that full tang is the way to go. The tang being completely inside the handle material also ensures that the shock of a jarring blow is not transmitted to the hand. The Chiruwa, having the tang sandwich in your palm, may transmit more shock thru this exposed metal.

In the end it is a matter of opinion. In the thicknesses we're talking here, I doubt any of these tangs will fail, even the partial villager tangs.
Most malaysian, phillipine, and other asian weapons and bladed tools have partial tangs, and noone seems to care or notice. sometimes those are only pinned or glued. I don't much care for partial tangs, once again just my opinion.

Keith
 
Thanks Yvsa. (and Keith)
In other words, I can stop worrying about tangs on HI khuks.
munk
 
On my M43 there are two "cap" screws vs only one on my other khukuris, but it is a "slab" tang. The long 30" kobra has two screw caps like the M43 but it has no steel exposed at all. Is that a fork tang?;)
Sam
 
One of these days I am going to request the ultimate modern khukuri. An M43 style pointy khukuri with a solid forged steel handle. No bolster, no pommel cap, no pins, no stress risers, and no glue; just a solid one piece assembly with nothing to work loose, and zero gaps to rust or worry about. Perhaps a bit cold for winter conditions, but great for tropical/sub-tropical conditions. Just keep the handle reasonably narrow (traditional size) to keep the weight in check. For added fun, we can drill our the handle where the original scale pins would have been and radius and polish the holes for use as a lanyard and tie off point. The whole thing can be blued and then supplied with a heavy kydex sheath. Instead of the chakma and karda, just add a pocket on the sheath large enough for a good SAK.

Until then I am happy with either of the standard handles.

n2s

BTW, would anyone be interested in making the one piece khukuri?
 
That's a interesting idea...why not just wrap the handle in leather?


munk
 
Leather promotes rust, and wraps wear quickly. However, by going with a relatively narrow handle the user has the option to add their own wrap as desired.

n2s
 
It is a worthy idea, N2...intriguing...I'm betting though, that the force neccesary to prove this model stronger than conventional designs would not occur in the lifetime of the blade, or yours or mine.

I wouldn't want a thin handle. I'd wrap. Remove the wrap periodically and check for rust. Heck, you could wax the handle before wrapping with any material.

The knife would be usable with or without a wrap. I like your idea.


A small hammer face could be forged on the end of the handle as well.

munk
 
N2, because of it's ultimate survival use and market, it wouldn't need a mirror finish. Without the cost of that and the handle, the price might be kept reasonable.

I don't know if a Kami would hate this or not...but what a knife for the US market.

munk
 
Maybe you could just whip a bunch of aracord around the handle. Or they sell this waxed nylon thread that you can use to sew leather. tuff stuff, and the wax packs it all together onthe handle when you wind it around.

Keith
 
Probably standard handle wrap (the stuff used on baseball bats, tennis rackets, and golf clubs) would work well. In the warmer wetter climates you could just go bare (and the knife too). Keep the high polish though; the better the polish the less surface area you have to promote rust. The polish and bluing working together should make it very resistent. Just reapply a cold blue every so often from the comfort of home to take care of the scratches.

n2s
 
I haven't been concerned about rust with well used knives.

A firearm, (blue particularly,) because it has cavities and surfaces not continually in use, and by products of combustion that promote rust, is a different story.

munk
 
Well used knives tend to blue naturally. But, blueing it is a simple process that reduces the visual signature, maintains the polish finish, helps to protect the steel, is easy to maintain, and it gives the piece a distinctive look. It is not necessary, but it doesn't hurt.

n2s
 
The kamis, as usual, have "improved" the design of the M43. The HI M43 looks pretty much like the original version but the kamis have decided that the integral bolster and buttcap should be replaced with HI standard. My guess is the original design is too Indian for them. They try to make their khukuris distinctly different from Indian models.
 
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