Tanto - more looks than ability???

A

akula57

Joined
Jul 24, 1999
Messages
198
They look great, but can they cut it?

Personally, I doubt it given the lack of a curved belly. Also, does it thrust better or is the thick point actually an impediment? Are some tanto designs or knives better than others - say the Stryker vs the Voyager?

I'm no expert, but I prefer a California Clip.
 
Some of us don't even think American tantos look good.
smile.gif


-Cougar Allen :{)
 
In my opinion, the yoroi-toshi style blade, with 0-grind, is one of the best cutting designs when properly executed. My best experience in cutting has been with a Hartsfield Kwaiken, which is a yoroi-toshi, chisel ground blade. Penetration is also superior to most tip designs because of less drag. With the chisel yoroi-toshi, there is only one point of drag. Other designs have more drag. You can test this by taking various designs and pushing the blade tips through simple cardstock paper. You can feel the difference with a properly designed chisel yoroi toshi, as opposed to many designs.
 
I agree with you Cougar Allen! Not to crazy with the looks of the American Tanto.
DrRMJ!
You are right, The penetration of a chisel ground blade is unbelievable. Out of all my knives the chisel ground are the sharpest.

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"ALWAYS WATCH YOUR SIX"




[This message has been edited by jacko (edited 19 November 1999).]
 
My comment as a non-U.S. : Americans don't know how to smooth things, as clearly be seen everywhere, from their tantos to their stealth aircrafts.
smile.gif


I like it though.

Dew.
 
I like the Americanized Tanto for an everyday utility knife.I found the secondary edge to be very usefull.I never fell for the chisel ground ones.Double ground Tanto's are the way to go.
scott w
 
I like American tanto of its utility. Difference from classic style gives tradeoff between a curved belly and "second tip." A belly cuts better on soft materials with more smoothness, but the "second tiip" works better in harder materials. I think it's same as happening in serrated edge when cutting.

Aesthetically, I'd love the design itself in the way I love the shape of Lancia Delta S4, a super rally car in '80s.

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\(^o^)/ Mizutani Satoshi \(^o^)/
 
Confusing the performance of an acute single grind with the performance of a chisel grind is a common error. Try comparing to a puukko grind at the same angle before you decide there's anything special about the cutting or penetrating performance of a chisel grind.

-Cougar Allen :{)
 
I like tantos, especially american ones. The only thing that I don't think it will do well is skin animals, after that it is a matter of personal preference. For opening boxes and scraping stickers & trimming gaskets and such, an American tanto works really well.

When talking about folder sized knives, I don't think anyone will notice a lick of difference when it comes to penetration. What the hell are you planning on penetrating anyway? A soft target does not offer enough resistance to make much of a difference between any blade style as long as it has a point up front. Are you planning on stabbing through Armor? I don't think I have ever stabbed a knife into anything unless it was just for fun. My stiff KISS pokes holes in a roast pretty darn easily.

What is the point of a curved belly? Slashing? IF belly was all that important we'd all be running around with tactical ulus slicing eachother up. It seems to me that the secondary point on a tanto would do a good job of slashing, especially when confronting something wearing Carhart's.

It has its uses, and it has its faults, just like every other knife design. Nothing is perfect. I personally find concave clip points to be alot uglier than a tanto will ever be, but that is me.

YeK
 
tancrp.jpg

After much experimenting over the years with Tanto Style blades, I've found that the ones above work the best for me. Most everyone that has used the chisel ground ones I first made, prefer the double ground style.
Both knives are done off a 6" contact wheel and are double,hollow ground. This makes for a very thin, sharp edge with plenty of material remaining for a strong blade. To keep the "Point Edge" as strong as possible, it's convex ground.
The pictured neck knife is an older version. To make it a better utility knife, I'm now making the grind lines higher with a thinner edge. The convex point is also more drawn out, giving it a better, functional point. This knife has definatly "evolved" through customer input!
Neil

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Just updated 10/31!! New Knives, New Pics!!!
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DrRMJ (and all),

This is not an indictment of Hartsfield
blades.

I saw the "points of drag" demonstration
that Phill did/does at the Blade Show West
a few years back.

For those of you who didn't see it:

Phill holds a 3" by 5" card horizontally
over a box and pushes a Sykes-Fairbairn-
style knife through the card. He has to
apply pressure all the while he does it.
Then he does it with his Yori-Toshi. After
penetrating past the tip, the knife just
falls through the card. He uses this as
an argument that the chisel-grind has "fewer
points of drag".

My question is: Is this a reasonable
argument?

IMHO this is a "trick" , because the
Yori-toshi tip is thicker than any other
part of the blade, so once the tip passes
through the paper, the rest of the knife
just falls through. The S-F "dagger" gets
wider as you approach the guard, so you have
to keep pushing to get the larger part of
the blade through.

If Phill means that the Yori-T has less
drag because only the tip contacts the media
being cut, I agree. But what I don't
understand is if he means that the chisel
grind inherently generates less drag when
being pushed through an object. This I
don't believe.

If someone can explain the "fewer points
of drag" argument to me, I would be grateful.

Once again this is not a criticism of Phill
Hartsfield or his knives/swords. I met Phill
and he seems like a great guy. Likewise his
knives seem to be first-quality to me. I
just can't afford his prices (yet). I look
forward to buying one of his Yori-Toshis
in the future. Very nice work!


Mark
 
On the tanto vs. other question:

I think that tantos, taken as a whole, are
sharper and have a stronger tip than other
designs. I say this because AFAIK there
are more chisel-ground tantos (and tantos
with no secondary-bevel) than other styles
and that their tips are more massive than
other styles, in general. If you grind
your own blades or have access to the custom
market, then all bets are off.

Less included angle = sharper, chisel-ground
or pukko-ground or whatever. You can twist
the grind on a drop-point and use the
primary grind to form the edge and end up
with a blade which is just as sharp as a
chisel-ground tanto and just as tip-strong
as most tantos, but there aren't many of
those made ( or I haven't seen them).


Mark
 
Mark,
Again, not to criticize Phils Knives....
If I had the $$$$, one of his Katanas would be on my list!!!
I think that the FS dagger style would probably be about the hardest to push through any media like cardboard. If you think about the blade geometry, the edges and all 4 planes that make up the blade shape get larger as you aproach the guard. Think of the drag on the blade area between the egdes and the spines? That's a lot of drag!!!
I don't believe this test is a good comparison to any real world application either. But it makes good conversation!
Neil

------------------
Just updated 10/31!! New Knives, New Pics!!!
http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Meeting/5520/index.html

 
Personally, I like the American Tanto design, it might just be because I have had a lot of success with them. Iuse a Tanto for everyday carry, which included utility and defense, that that does not dome up very often
smile.gif
I wish the secondary angle was a little less steep, but I can deal with it.

Dark Nemesis

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<A HREF="http://home.att.net/~dark-nemesis/" TARGET=_blank>
http://home.att.net/~dark-nemesis</A>
All the knives in the world go round and round, round and round, round and round...DAMN, one of them took my wallet !!! :)
 
I have a couple of gripes with that Hartsfield demonstartion:

First,
How much pressure is required to drive the tanto point in? Every test I've done suggests it requires a great deal more force than an other blade style (excluding sheepsfoot) - and while I don't have a lot of double-ground daggers lying around due to MA law, the few I've used or made (including the A-F) have had downright scary penetration. Yes, maybe the force needs to be applied for a greater length of the blade, but it's a shockingly small amount of force, especially compared to what you must use to drive the thick cross-section and "blunt" angle of a tanto into similar material.

Second,
Why does the force drop off after Mr. Hartsfield manages to push the point through? Because cardboard is a thin medium with nothing but air behind it. That's fine for stabbing boxes, but what about any "real" stabbing situation (mind you, I think 99.9% of knives will only encounter boxes, but who cares how well you stab those)? Anthing you might really want to stab with a knife will probably not be so thin and uniform - it will be a thick and varied substance such as flesh over muscle and fat. You will need constant pressure to penetrate it, and as I said before, the tanto will require the MOST pressure, the double-ground dagger will require the LEAST.

Some tantos look "cool" to me. Most look terrible, because the harsh angles of the blade make an ugly contrast with a curvy, organic handle. But either way, I still feel that the tanto shape offers NO substantial advantages to offset the major disadvantage of lacking a real belly.

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-Corduroy
"Why else would a bear want a pocket?"

Little Bear Knives
Drew Gleason:
adg@student.umass.edu
 
Penetrating meat is trivial; you might as well test penetration of butter. In real life you never have to penetrate a foot-thick block of bone or steel as far as possible; you only have to penetrate a thin layer of something resistant. Testing on relatively thin layers of resistant materials is the only meaningful penetration test unless you use a knife for something unusual (I can't guess what, but I suppose there's probably some application ... definitely not defense, though.)

-Cougar Allen :{)
 
Interesting. My gripe with chisel ground knives is the secondary edge on most of them - I don't consider this a true chisel. I agree that it takes more force to push a tanto point though most mediums - including cardboard. Yes, the point is stronger, but I'm not going to "attack" any car hoods soon.

I like the pictured tantos. The soft curve, instead of a secondary point is very nice.
 
Tantos... Yuck! My clip point Axis Lock 710 penetrates things fine.

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David Gardner
Vineland NJ

"If you fake the Funk, your nose will grow."
-W. Bootsy Collins


 
Oh yeah... Dew. I agree with you about the Americans not being able to smooth things, (Even though I'm an American) But the original stalth aircraft had to be jagged to disperse radar. Only now are they smoothing stealth craft.
wink.gif
 
Wow, what a great topic. I ask Phill Hartsfield about his Yoroi Toshi blade design in relationship to penetration.. What you need to look at is the overall design, not just the tip. The "point of drag," an d this would apply not only to a thin piece of cardboard, but to any media, is the surface area between the tip, the angle, and the end of the grind on the tip end. Another important factor is that the spine of the blade be straight and bottom side does not taper, because that would create another pint of drag, albeit one that has the sharp edge to compensate. Phil's Yoroi Toshi design, as with others, such as RJ Martin and Barry Dawson, as a relief cut on the spine, that also contributes to the absence of drag. Again, I believe that it is more than just a "tanto-style" tip that determines the ultimate penetrating ability of a particular design. Let's face it, a no-name inexpensive steak knife will penetrate a media if enough force is a applied. As knive enthusiasts, I believe that it is interesting to study the geometry of a particular design and comapre it to others. A knife is a knife, but a knife design contains the maker's experience, applications geometry, and art.
 
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