Teach me what you know about pins please

Fletch Helical

Fletch Helical

Joined
Sep 29, 2009
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Alright my first knife will be on it's way back into my hot little hands this week. I'll now get my feet wet at actually finishing a knife. Stacy has been kind enough to to pre-drill things for me so I can assemble things fairly easily which will be helpful. However, as most of you probably know I haven't sat idle in my down time and have a handful of other knives already waiting in the wings. Most of which will need to be drilled and I need to know what is the best route to go fro determining putting scales on.

What I've done is bought myself some brass rod (1/8", 3/16, and 1/4") which I figured would be great for using as pin material. Now I know a hole drilled to the size of the rod will not accept that size rod. So just so I'm clear on this Stacy mentioned that you should drill your holed 50% bigger than the pin material. So if I want to use an 1/8" pin I want to make sure I'm drilling a 3/16" hole right? Now can I get away using say a 1/4" hole to use a 3/16 pin or is that cutting it too close?

Next question(s): What else do you guys use for pinning material? I think I remember seeing a post where someone uses a piece of electrical wire as material. I'm guessing you're just using a heavy gauge wire for that? If so, since it's copper do you have to worry about discoloring with it?

I also found there is steel rod I can get in similar sizes at Home Depot but since they're not stainless is it bad to use them since they'd be more prone to rust?


Sorry that I loaded this one up with multiple questions but by the time I finish my first I should also have a few others that should be ready to hit the finishing stages as well. So before I HT them I want to make sure I'm getting the right sized holes drilled for the pins.
 
First off, if you're not using any other mechanical hold such as Loveless or Corby Bolts, then your pins are your primary means of attaching your handle scales. You want material that will stand up to shearing forces without shattering or bending too easily, yet malleable enough to flare when you peen the ends. It's the flared/peened ends that provides the holding power. I suppose you could use copper, but depending on the source it could be rather soft, so you'd want a tight fit between pin stock, handle material, and tang.

I've never heard the advice you mentioned that the holes have to be 50% larger than the diameter of the pin. Why? The larger the gap between pin and tang, the more room there is for movement of the scale, especially if your epoxy fails. If a person is relying on a large pin hole to allow epoxy to flow through from one side of the tang to the other if gluing up both scales simultaneously, then there are better ways of accomplishing that (such as drilling other holes).

Brass rods are fine--3/32, 1/8, etc. I've never tried anything as large as 1/4 inch. Brass brazing rods from the hardware store are a good cheap source.

Nickel silver is also good, or stainless. Steel welding rod works fine too, and rust isn't that big of a deal if a person is maintaining the knife. On some period knives it's preferred over stainless.

Yes, copper will discolor, but so will brass and nickel silver.
 
I get good performance drilling 1/64" oversize. I think anything larger is noticible, there is a definite gap around the pin (my personal opinion). I would also make sure you you open a larger space between the steel and the scale, I use a dremel moto tool with a ball burr. This allows more epoxy between the wood and the pin.

Finally, my customers overwhelmingly prefer mosaic pins over solid pins. I know they are more expensive, but they really pop against a scale.

Peter
 
My understanding for drilling the holes larger is to allow for a little room to maneuver when putting it all together should everything not line up to a "t"
 
Fletch Helical said:
What I've done is bought myself some brass rod (1/8", 3/16, and 1/4") which I figured would be great for using as pin material. Now I know a hole drilled to the size of the rod will not accept that size rod. So just so I'm clear on this Stacy mentioned that you should drill your holed 50% bigger than the pin material. So if I want to use an 1/8" pin I want to make sure I'm drilling a 3/16" hole right? Now can I get away using say a 1/4" hole to use a 3/16 pin or is that cutting it too close?

Next question(s): What else do you guys use for pinning material? I think I remember seeing a post where someone uses a piece of electrical wire as material. I'm guessing you're just using a heavy gauge wire for that? If so, since it's copper do you have to worry about discoloring with it?

I also found there is steel rod I can get in similar sizes at Home Depot but since they're not stainless is it bad to use them since they'd be more prone to rust?


Sorry that I loaded this one up with multiple questions but by the time I finish my first I should also have a few others that should be ready to hit the finishing stages as well. So before I HT them I want to make sure I'm getting the right sized holes drilled for the pins.
Click to expand...

I usually use a hand drill to drill my holes and what I do is wobble the bit after it is through. Probably not what would be considered a 'best practice' but it usually makes the hole big enough for the pin stock. If not then I use a chain saw file to make the hole just big enough so that all the pins and thong hole fit snugly with the scales.

Copper can work but I've found that sanding it can leave green filings in the pores of the wood.

I have seen 3/16" stainless rod at home depot, you can also check your yellow pages for "industrial supply" find one that deals with the public and they should have it. Even Admiral sells SS Pin Stock so do several of the knifemaker supply houses that get listed here almost daily; I believe it was TKS that I ordered some 416 pin stock from.

A local place had some aircraft cable on sale, like a 50' piece, so I bought some 3/16" stuff and plan on using some of it for pins.
 
I use a tapered reamer on the scales to give the pin material some fill room. I tap the pins around all sides with the ball end of a light ball pein hammer, then use the flat face to drive everything down into the chamfer I created with the reamer. For most materials, it is best (IMO) to use a series of light taps rather than a few heavy ones. You'll be surprised at how much the material moves. Keep checking the fit, you can over-do it and crack your handle materiel. G10 and most micarta is dense enough that this is somewhat less of an issue, but with any wood or natural material, you have to be especially careful not to split the scales. Also, a general rule of thumb is to leave about the length of half the width of the pin on each side. I have personally been using a lot of corby type fasteners lately, but I still pin quite often. As far as the tang holes, I have gone between oversized holes, and sanding the pin down to fit. Personally, I prefer sanding the pin down. It may be a bit more work in the end, but you take off a very small amount of the pin stock, and help ensure a snug fit. I prefer to have to tap the pins in rather than have the pin swimming in the hole. I agree that mosaic pins look nice under the right circumstances. When I use mosaic pins, I have gone to using them just for the center pin and have a more mechanically sound fastener on each end.

Please don't mistake this as me criticizing Stacy's advice, I have the utmost respect for him. I'm just telling you how I do it. I still consider myself a novice, but I can say without question, that I would be further behind than I am, were it not for his (and soooo many others) advice here in the forum.
 
The pins should be snug in the hole. Chamfer the top of the scale pin hole slightly.
Use a small hammer- under 2 ounces, and lightly peen the head of the pin. Use your wrist, not your arm, when riveting. Leave about 1/16" of the pin exposed on both sides of the handle, then peen. You can finish the head flush, or buff it to a nice, domed shape.
 
Fletch Helical said:
My understanding for drilling the holes larger is to allow for a little room to maneuver when putting it all together should everything not line up to a "t"
Click to expand...

As long as you have good technique, this should not be necessary. Like the old carpenter's axiom--measure twice, cut once.
 
Fletch Helical said:
My understanding for drilling the holes larger is to allow for a little room to maneuver when putting it all together should everything not line up to a "t"
Click to expand...

You're also filling the hole with apoxy; so when it's dry, there is no larger hole.

What I do is drill the hole in both the scales and the tang the same size. If I need to reduce the size of the pin, I chuck it in the drill press, and use sand paper to get it down to the right size.
 
if you feel you need extra room in the tang holes , you can use a numbered drill , one size larger than the main drill . Same goes for the scales if the pin is too tight . Or a reamer for the scale holes . I drill my tang holes the same size as the pin and clean them with a chain saw file before heat treat . If the pins are tight in the scales , you have all the options as others have mentioned . A reamer , numbered drill bit , chain saw file , all to make the hole a tad larger or sand the pin to fit as mentioned . IMO , the pin should be sanded anyway to roughen it up for the epoxy .
 
#30,40 and 51 for 1/8 3/32/ and 1/16 inch welding rod(uncoated and "F" bit for 1/4 inch thong holes and mosiac pinstock will give you the clearance for a wipe of epoxy and not bind on the handle material. A light "countersink" on the back sides of the handles and the same on both sides of the steel will form a "knot" of epoxy on the handle and blade surfaces and prevent thing from moving around.
 
One more thing I learned, don't use 5-minute epoxy. My handle came loose after using it. That thing is weak. 30-minute epoxy is much stronger.

I use brass rod but I heard that modern brass has 2% lead in it. I'm thinking of switching over to stainless steel roids.
 
Matt, I must have missed this thread when you posted it last month.

The 50% oversize holes are in the TANG of the blade, not in the handle material.
If you drill the tang holes as exact sizes you will surely have some issues when fitting things up at gluing time. The extra room allows for swelling and shrinking of the wood while shaping, and misalignments of pin holes. It also allows you to get the ricasso end of the handle aligned to the blade exactly. As said, the holes will fill with epoxy and there will be no slop once cured.

The holes through the handle material are first drilled with a drill bit that is slightly smaller than the pin, and then re-drilled with a bit that just allows the pin to pass through without resistance ( but without any slop). Tapering the hole with a reamer is good if you are going to peen the rivets, but a straight hole will be fine for glued in rivets.

When using pins, any metal will work, but brass, copper, nickel, bronze, and stainless steel are the normal ones used. Put a chamfer on the end of the pin/rivet to allow it to pass through the handle without catching the sides of the hole. Besides making insertion easier, this chamfer does an important thing with the glue. It forces the glue between the rivet and the handle wood. If the end of the rivet was a perfect flat, it would push the glue in front of the rivet like a piston. You need/want a little glue between the rivet and the handle material. Twisting the rivet as it is slowly inserted will also assure a complete glue seal.

Back to the rivet material.
Brass, bronze, and nickel work easily. Copper is a bit gummy , but not all that hard to use. Stainless looks good, but care must be taken if using a belt sander that it does not get hot ( which it will quickly do) and scorch the wood around the pin as well as destroy the glue holding the rivet.

Stacy
 
Is it pretty much standard practice to peen the heads of basic metal pins into a chamfered area around the pin hole? I've been inserting my brass pins through when the scale wood is, say, 80% down to size and then sanding the pins flush without peening. So.... if you peen, do you take your scale wood, say, 99% down and then just lightly sand the peened surface to flush?

Also.. what is the best way to chamfer the pin hole for peening? Can I just use a drill bit one size larger that the hole??? Seems like that would work...
 
I think what Stacy was trying to say was to chamfer the end of the pin. (So it pushes the epoxy threw the hole). Not make the hole bigger. John
 
hi... no... I understood that. I was talking about widening the hole just at the surface of the wood (a countersink) for the pin to accomodate the peened surface of the pin. Or do you just peen over the surface of the wood???
 
bladsmth said:
The 50% oversize holes are in the TANG of the blade, not in the handle material.
If you drill the tang holes as exact sizes you will surely have some issues when fitting things up at gluing time. The extra room allows for swelling and shrinking of the wood while shaping, and misalignments of pin holes. It also allows you to get the ricasso end of the handle aligned to the blade exactly. As said, the holes will fill with epoxy and there will be no slop once cured.
Click to expand...


Yeah I knew you were talking about drilling the tang hole bigger. But I just wasn't sure if the epoxy was all that basically held the pins in place in there. I thought with something like a pin you wanted it to basically fit snug in the tang.
 
Fletch, I just did mine and used a 1/8" stainless welding rod. I used a 9/64" drill bit which left almost the perfect amount of clearance for the epoxy. Of course, woodwork is my weak point and the holes weren't perfectly lined up, so here is what I will do next time.
1. Drill the tang with 1/8" holes (snug fit)
2. clamp and drill the bottom scale with 1/8" holes putting pin in first set of holes to line up second holes.
3. Repeat #2 with the top scale
4. pin/bolt through both scales and cut/sand the ricasso side of the scales to match
5. re-drill out all the holes with 9/64" to make larger

This should give accurate holes and scales should meet the guard(if used) nicely. Starting out with the 9/64" holes left some play in the scales so the second holes weren't lined up as well as I would have wished.
 
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