Teaching someone to teach others to sharpen

[xxratchetxx]

I have been put in an interesting position. My unit is getting ready to go to a big training exercise where there will be plenty of down time for hip-pocket training. I suggested to my Major that I could teach our NCOs and soldiers how to use the Norton Econo-stones that are in our food inspectors kits. I have already asked if anyone knows how to use them and, of course, the answer was "no." She told me to train and NCO to do this and let him/her give the course. It took me a year of youtube/bladeforums to teach myself how to sharpen like an amateur. I'm not quite sure how I can train someone to the level to train others in just an hour or so. I definitely wont have access to the internet out there or else I could find a good youtube video or bladeforums instructional to teach off of. Anyone have any good resources or advice? Maybe a good printable guide that a squared away NCO can teach the soldiers off of (this should be a guide that people who have never looked at a stone before could follow)?


Thanks

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Hope this helps, quoting myself, stone or bottom of mug is the same

Recently I have linked this video, for a beginner yo see that hopefully encourage them to start: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SEMLu8e34ck
This is the result of collaboration from this thread:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1029230-New-to-Sharpening-Need-help!/page3

For printable guide, I'd recommend checking out HeavyHanded washboard. It comes with very good instructions. He shared this here, but I'd suggest asking if it's ok with him to reproduce for your training class.

 

[bgentry]

The Major is sending you on a dummy mission. She either doesn't understand the skill required, or doesn't care about it being taught.

You can't teach a normal person how to sharpen in one hour. So, trying to teach someone to *Teach* others in 1 hour is just foolish. Sorry I don't have good advice for you. It's just not realistic.

Brian.

 

[gadgetgeek]

I would say stick to the absolute basics, teach your "teacher" what the pitfalls are, so that they can correct people, and see how it goes. You might not end up with sharper knives, but at least if people have the basics, then you might be able to add a tip here or there, or you may find that a few take more interest, and develop the skill on their own. I don't think you'll teach anyone to sharpen, but you can at least teach them how not do it.

 

[pathwinder14]

The Major is sending you on a dummy mission. She either doesn't understand the skill required, or doesn't care about it being taught.

You can't teach a normal person how to sharpen in one hour. So, trying to teach someone to *Teach* others in 1 hour is just foolish. Sorry I don't have good advice for you. It's just not realistic.

Brian.

What he said. She just has no clue what is involved.

 

[HeavyHanded]

What he said. She just has no clue what is involved.

I agree as well. OP is welcome to use the manual from my site (linked below) but I cannot imagine success on this assignment with those tools. You'd be better off with a carbide scraper.

If I had to make it happen, I'd advocate a circular honing method such as might be used with an axe puck.

 

[Butcher1]

You should just teach the NCO to teach everyone to sharpen with everyone else present

 

[Jens Schuetz]

Why wouldn't she let you teach everybody?
Is it some rank thing that the NCO would feel bad if you teach stuff to others which he doesn't know?
Who for example teaches your first aid? The specialists or the NCO after he had been "taught" for an hour?
I don't get it.

Try to convince her that you are the best man for this and don't let others get credit for your work.

Taking initiative, helping others to improve etc. should be encouraged and should influence future promotions in my opinion. What do you think?

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I have been put in an interesting position. My unit is getting ready to go to a big training exercise where there will be plenty of down time for hip-pocket training. I suggested to my Major that I could teach our NCOs and soldiers how to use the Norton Econo-stones that are in our food inspectors kits. I have already asked if anyone knows how to use them and, of course, the answer was "no." She told me to train and NCO to do this and let him/her give the course. It took me a year of youtube/bladeforums to teach myself how to sharpen like an amateur. I'm not quite sure how I can train someone to the level to train others in just an hour or so. I definitely wont have access to the internet out there or else I could find a good youtube video or bladeforums instructional to teach off of. Anyone have any good resources or advice? Maybe a good printable guide that a squared away NCO can teach the soldiers off of (this should be a guide that people who have never looked at a stone before could follow)?


Thanks

At the crudest, most rudimentary level of 'training' for sharpening, it may come down to just showing one or more individuals how to do nothing more than make a BIG, OBVIOUS BURR on a blade's edge, by grinding on the coarse side of the Norton Econo-stone. Focus ONLY on that, with no other distractions about theory or specific techniques. To add some motivation, do this in a group setting and set up some sort of competition (with a reward of your choosing) to see who does it first. Then, when somebody succeeds in forming a burr along the full length of the edge, just flip the blade over and do it again from the other side. That's about 70% of the battle. Once a burr has been formed and flipped, go to 'phase 2' of the contest using the Fine side of the stone, and see who does the best job cleaning up the burr and leaving a utility-sharp edge (this means it should be functional for realistic use, at least) on the blade. 'Phase 3' of the competition could be geared toward seeing how well each newly-formed edge will cut; check paper-slicing ability to see if the edge will cleanly & repeatedly slice paper without slipping or snagging (& move thru finer/thinner grades of paper, if it's available, which is more challenging). Check edge durability by carving or whittling on wood, then re-checking paper-slicing sharpness afterward. If all of this can be pulled off, the rest is essentially gravy, and you'll likely spur some more 'obsessive' sharpening practice among at least a few in the group in the process. If so, the rest will likely take care of itself.

The above may be pie-in-the-sky naiveté on my part, in thinking it may actually work. But, given the challenging constraints of time and the absense of a well-practiced trainer, I think that's how I'd at least try to start out.


David

 

[Rey HRH]

I've taught university level and professional certification classes over several years. I've also written technical procedures and training documents. I think teaching someone how to teach a subject is a great experience for you to whittle down the subject into it's basics that would be memorable. It will be the same thing as teaching someone how to shoot a gun in under 5 minutes.

The NCO doesn't have to "know" how to sharpen; he/she just needs to know to present the basics that you'll tell him. He's just the conduit much like the mike. The important thing is that the message reaches the intended audience which are those who can understand the message which you'll craft.

Here is how I would distill the elements for your audience: (I'm not going for perfection or nuances that may be important things to knife nuts.)

1) A sharp knife is a knife whose cutting edge is a perfectly straight line when looked straight on.

2) You make a perfectly straight line for your cutting edge when the angles are consistent on either side of the bevel leading to the cutting edge line. (this takes care of the many different grinds like scandi or chisel.)

3) The more acute you make your angles, the more sharper your cutting edge will be. But the more acute you make your angles, the more liable you will lose the sharpness and the more often you'll have to sharpen your knife.

4) The key to having a consistent bevel angle is to use a reference when you sharpen your knife. (for this, you can either use the 2 or 3 penny method or your favorite method to determine an angle (like a paper folded twice into a triangle at give you 22.5 degrees) until you develop muscle memory.

5) For this point, you can either give them a set number of strokes per side like 7, 10, or whatever before they check their edge to see if it's one straight line.


And you're done with 5 points - one point for each finger on one hand. You have to set it up first with showing what the cutting edge is and what the bevel is. This is what you teach the NCO and you can see if he remembers it or writes it down on his notes. Don't worry about not getting the credit; it will still come back to you. Good luck.

 

[Jason B.]

Only the one who understands the subject can't truly teach it. Teaching someone a skill to pass to others will only end up in mass confusion.

I agree with David's method though, grind a big burr on the coarse side then remove it on the fine side. Shaving sharp or not it will still be sharper than a dull knife even with the most basic of sharpening ability.

I would stick with 3 main points 1) grind two fairly consistent bevels. 2) form a burr you can flip side to side. 3) with reduced pressure use the fine stone to deburr. Beyond that let them know this is just a basic "get you by" type of instruction.

 

[Rey HRH]

Only the one who understands the subject can't truly teach it. Teaching someone a skill to pass to others will only end up in mass confusion.

I agree with David's method though, grind a big burr on the coarse side then remove it on the fine side. Shaving sharp or not it will still be sharper than a dull knife even with the most basic of sharpening ability.

I would stick with 3 main points 1) grind two fairly consistent bevels. 2) form a burr you can flip side to side. 3) with reduced pressure use the fine stone to deburr. Beyond that let them know this is just a basic "get you by" type of instruction.

I have no argument about what goes into the lesson plan. My point is you can teach someone to teach others something the teacher in training doesn't know about. You're using the teacher as just a medium of instruction like a book or a video.

But you're incorrect in thinking only the one who understands the subject can truly teach it (if that's what you really mean to say). All a teacher has to be is at least one step ahead of the student. In some settings, (think doctoral student going for a PhD), the teacher or mentor may not even know the subject at all to the same degree as the student. The adage is true that if you really want to understand something, teach it - which means you don't understand the subject before teaching it compared to after having taught it.

Will the teaching be better if the teacher was competent and knowledgeable about the subject? sure. But the situation as described by the OP is not insurmountable or impossible. You know the old saying? If life hands you melons... then you must be dyslexic.

 

[bgentry]

My point is you can teach someone to teach others something the teacher in training doesn't know about. You're using the teacher as just a medium of instruction like a book or a video.

But you're incorrect in thinking only the one who understands the subject can truly teach it (if that's what you really mean to say). All a teacher has to be is at least one step ahead of the student.

With respect: I think those are terrible, awful ideas about teaching. Have you ever had a teacher that couldn't answer a question of "why do we do it that way?". Of course you have. You didn't learn much from that teacher did you? Shallow, peripheral understanding of subject matter makes for a poor teacher.

Again, I mean no insult to you. I just disagree with you completely on this point.

Brian.

 

[Jason B.]

With respect: I think those are terrible, awful ideas about teaching. Have you ever had a teacher that couldn't answer a question of "why do we do it that way?". Of course you have. You didn't learn much from that teacher did you? Shallow, peripheral understanding of subject matter makes for a poor teacher.

Again, I mean no insult to you. I just disagree with you completely on this point.

Brian.

Totally agree with this.

 

[Rey HRH]

With respect: I think those are terrible, awful ideas about teaching. Have you ever had a teacher that couldn't answer a question of "why do we do it that way?". Of course you have. You didn't learn much from that teacher did you? Shallow, peripheral understanding of subject matter makes for a poor teacher.

Again, I mean no insult to you. I just disagree with you completely on this point.

Brian.

I don't feel insulted. I think I've been into the subject of teaching as much as, if not more than, the experts here have been on sharpening. I understand you may not have considered the topic of teaching as much as I have.

A poor teacher is a poor teacher not because he doesn't have full mastery and complete understanding of the subject but because of other things. Knowing the subject very well is not a marker for a good teacher either. Teaching is a separate skill; the ability to take a relatively complex idea, break it down into organized pieces, and pass that to another.

Again, the saying "if you want to truly learn something, teach it" came to be because of the truth of the adage. As you go through the process of learning something in order to teach it, you will break it down into the elements even more so than if you were just learning it for yourself. As you prepare, you will wrestle with questions of "why do we do it that way?"

My first sentence that you quoted about using the NCO as a medium of instruction is simply offering a way for the OP to cope with the situation. What's he going to do? Insist that he be the one to teach the material? And, no offense to him either, has he ever stood in front of a group of people and conducted formal training? I'm thinking he keeps coming up with good ideas and they will give him a chance in the future. There's no downside to his cooperating with the Major's directive.

Edited to add two things:

1) If the OP isn't able to teach the NCO how to properly sharpen a knife one on one, it makes it difficult for me to believe that he would be able to teach a larger group of people how to sharpen a knife in a much shorter amount of time that he would spend with the NCO. In this case, after learning how to sharpen the knife, the NCO would simply be relaying his experience of learning how to sharpen a knife.

2) There's nothing in the OP or in the military that I know that would prevent the NCO when presented with a question during the training to direct the question to the OP so that he can answer the question or expand on whatever item is being discussed at the moment.

 

[chopsaki]

I'm in agreement with the other posters where I believe you have to truly know or have mastered the subject before you can effectively teach WELL.

Yes, one can "teach" someone having minimal knowledge of a subject but the lessons and the teaching will be lacking vital substance. The student will not truly gain anything.

Another aspect is respect. If the NCO can't get an edge than everyone will see it as waste of time and think it's a joke.

 

[bgentry]

Again, the saying "if you want to truly learn something, teach it" came to be because of the truth of the adage. As you go through the process of learning something in order to teach it, you will break it down into the elements even more so than if you were just learning it for yourself.

I wanted to say that, even though I disagree with your premise, *this* above, I do agree with. You always learn something new when you try to teach others something you know. I've taught sharpening to a class full of people before and it was HARD. In 4 hours we made some progress, but not nearly what I had hoped for.

Much, much later, when I decided to write up my ideas about The Seven Secrets Of Sharpening I spent a long time figuring out how to present the ideas and how to have them build upon each other. My initial ideas got replaced and enhanced as I thought through the entire set of secrets. I'm fairly pleased with the result, but I think it could be better if I spent time refining and expanding it some.

Brian.

 

[HeavyHanded]

I've made a handful of "introductory" videos to go with my Washboards, and every time I have to leave out half the content or go to eye glazing lengths of time. Is important at the introductory level to be fast, consistent (even if later instruction might contradict some of the material) and simple.
When I was getting certified for kettlebell instruction, it kept coming back to extreme basics - athletes are easy to train, its the progress of completely sedentary folk that are the measure of how well you instruct. Keep the message simple.

Observe often, grind a burr, grind off the burr. I still recommend the circular grinding method as it keeps people's movements small with minimal prodding - "circles the size of a penny" is something everyone can visualize. I've tried with varied success to teach people quickly at work, the lack of coordination is frightful in some individuals.

 

[xxratchetxx]

I apologize for not getting back to everyone sooner; however, life prevailed and I got caught up in day to day activities. I have gotten her to see the light and let me teach the class with my NCO as an "assistant." The issue was we were supposed to task out our NCOs to do some hip-pocket training for all of the down time we will have; however, I wanted to do something other than "put a check in the box." There's a lot of good things on here that I will definitely implement in the class. I really appreciate everyone's input on this! Leave it to bladeforums for people to come through and give you a hand when you need it. I will definitely be going the "make a big burr and then remove it" route.

PS: Heavyhanded - I shot you an email about using some of your printed guide for the class.

 

[Rey HRH]

Great news. Don't hold back your passion for getting a sharp edge. Students see it and it rubs off on them.