Recommendation? Teflon lube on Teflon washers

[RuLEoF2]

I have some folders that I've been cleaning up that have what appear to be Teflon washers. Is it safe to use PTFE lube on those?

Thanks.

 

[Mo2]

Yes ptfe is fine. You should not need any lube tho, Teflon is ptfe iirc so they are lubrication already. The lube if any should be used sparingly and cover the metal bits so they don't rust.

 

[Wanimator]

Yeah, it'd be compatible. Also, while "self lubricated" Teflon/PTFE works best with oil, the PTFE particles shouldn't harm anything.

 

[RuLEoF2]

Great. Thank you very much.

 

[Zombie411]

Yeah, it'd be compatible. Also, while "self lubricated" Teflon/PTFE works best with oil, the PTFE particles shouldn't harm anything.

"Teflon/PTFE works best with oil, the PTFE particles shouldn't harm anything."

I'm not sure what you mean here sir.
Example: Those door hinge rollers on older (70-80's) GM cars used Teflon bushings so those heavy doors would "feel" lighter opening, and closing.
Remember that "Creeeek" and the stiff spots that would occur. That sound, and stiffness were caused by mechanics at dealerships (or well meaning shade tree guys) applying everything except PTFE based lubricants.

If an item uses teflon as a washer/bushing then ONLY PTFE based lubricants should be used.
Teflon and hydrocarbon based lubricants are much like oil, and water. They just don't mix well.

 

[lex2006]

I have tried teflon dry spray on xm18s
Spray it on both sides (washers only)
Then just lightly wipe it dry
Works very well and you don't have to worry about getting oil on blade or lock bar
Lot of people even run them dry without anything

 

[Zombie411]

Dupont makes a dry Teflon spray. The only time it is a liquid is from the carrier (butane) in the can.
About 15 minutes, and it is completely dry.

I've used it on motorcycle chains for years so a knife pivot is a non issue for it.

I imagine for the tiny drops you would need for a knife... One can may last a lifetime.

 

[Mo2]

Grease is often ptfe. It uses a carrier like butane. For example the Chris reeves grease. You apply it and then the carrier evaporates and it dries in place.

It's fairly pointless to add oil to Teflon washers. If you don't like that type of action get something else. Or find a pb washer that fits. Or If they get worn out replace them.

Adding more ptfe/grease ain't gonna hurt it but I can't imagine the difference it would make if any. Sounds like a test someone can perform and share their results.

Op how was your outcome after adding ptfe to your Teflon washers?

 

[jpm2]

Don't know what my bm 812hs washers were, they weren't metal, but no lube worked the best.

 

[RuLEoF2]

Op how was your outcome after adding ptfe to your Teflon washers?

I've been using SuperLube grease with PTFE. I think it does a pretty good job. Smoother action and a bit quicker. I have it in a heavy weight liquid pen applicator and in aerosol spray as well.

I'm using it on the CRKT Crawford Kasper line which has a large, heavy blade and a secondary thumb lock on the back. It's all on the same hinge so adjusting the tightness of the blade swing also effects the thumb lock. These are thumbstud driven knives so of coarse, deployment is critical.

In general with a lot of thumb driven folding knives, I like the swing to be a bit labored to prevent accidental opening. Specifically with this model, given the heft of the blade, I prefer it especially snug which makes the action of the secondary lock tighter as well which is also preferred. This case more than others is why a well lubed pivot is particularly important. I find that grease rather than liquid achieves this better.

This may not mean much but let me describe how everything is stacked up to give you a better feel for what you think is most appropriate. The pivot uses three washers. Right to left is the liner plate, a very thin brass washer, the lock plate, a small and fairly thin Teflon washer, the blade, a much larger and thicker Teflon washer and finally the other liner plate. The secondary lock is an almost crescent shaped plate with a small 90° tab on one edge and a small 90° thumbstud on the other. This plate sits next to the blade. So, when the liner lock sets the blade, the thumb lock can be optionally engaged by sliding the thumbstud upward like a lever. This positions the 90° tab between the liner lock and the grip plate. The tab then acts as a stop, preventing the liner lock from being pushed outward and disengaged.

Sorry if I sound like I'm selling it but personally, I really like it. I don't use the thumb lock much but the option is nice to have. It's basically a safety that prevents from accidental closure when you're really tearing into something. My son is a scout so I'm camping with the troop a lot. BSA pretty much bans fixed blade/sheath knives so scouts are limited to locking folders. For the sake of not being hypocritical, us adults stick with folders as well. A solid, stable and most importantly safe folding knife is essential. This hits the mark on all points and is very economical.

 

[Wanimator]

Superlube does work very well. It's a PAO oil with PTFE I'm it, and their grease is essentially that with a thickener. In a rolling application the coefficient of friction may very well be reduced to such low levels that the PTFE would slide rather than roll and cause flat spots such as in those rollers. But this is a sliding/rotating application and that reduction in friction will be beneficial.

 

[REK Knives]

A dab of oil definitely helps knives with ptfe washers run smoother, no question. Not sure about ptfe lube on the washers... I tried it on mine w/ out much success.

 

[RuLEoF2]

I have tried teflon dry spray on xm18s
Spray it on both sides (washers only)
Then just lightly wipe it dry
Works very well and you don't have to worry about getting oil on blade or lock bar
Lot of people even run them dry without anything

Great suggestion. Dry lube also has the benefit of capturing less contaminants. It's amazing how much and how fast crap can build up inside a daily carry clip-knife. I'll definitely have to try this.

Superlube does work very well. It's a PAO oil with PTFE I'm it, and their grease is essentially that with a thickener. In a rolling application the coefficient of friction may very well be reduced to such low levels that the PTFE would slide rather than roll and cause flat spots such as in those rollers. But this is a sliding/rotating application and that reduction in friction will be beneficial.

Yes, I agree. I've been using SuperLube for years, primarily on plastics, and it has always worked well.

Example: Those door hinge rollers on older (70-80's) GM cars used Teflon bushings so those heavy doors would "feel" lighter opening, and closing.
Remember that "Creeeek" and the stiff spots that would occur. That sound, and stiffness were caused by mechanics at dealerships (or well meaning shade tree guys) applying everything except PTFE based lubricants.

If an item uses teflon as a washer/bushing then ONLY PTFE based lubricants should be used.
Teflon and hydrocarbon based lubricants are much like oil, and water. They just don't mix well.

I know exactly what you mean about the doors. My wife's Volkswagen must use Teflon rollers because I've sprayed them with white lithium grease numerous times and that damn creek always comes back within a year. Now that you mention it, I can see why you wouldn't want to use oil-based lubes on Teflon. I know that oil will damage and break down most plastics. Also, oil needs surface features to adhere to or it just beads up and runs off. Teflon is so smooth that it resists pretty much everything so oil wouldn't have a chance. It makes sense that PTFE lube has similar enough molecular properties that it would adhere and stay put.

This is all very good information and really appreciated. My primary concern was that the PTFE lube would break down the Teflon washers. Kind of like the way silicone can absorb silicone-based lubes, swell, soften and eventually fall apart. Glad to hear that this isn't the case here.

Thanks guys.

 

[Mo2]

My primary concern was that the PTFE lube would break down the Teflon washers.

i dont understand. ptfe = teflon
Teflon® is a familiar trade name for polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE) made by DuPont.

 

[adamlau]

Or perhaps the concern was that the carrier solvent(s) keeping the PTFE in solution would attack the washers.

 

[Zombie411]

My primary concern was that the PTFE lube would break down the Teflon washers. Kind of like the way silicone can absorb silicone-based lubes, swell, soften and eventually fall apart. Glad to hear that this isn't the case here.

Or perhaps the concern was that the carrier solvent(s) keeping the PTFE in solution would attack the washers.

I think both are fair statements because it is the solvents, and carriers in Silicone based lubes that break down the silicone.
That's how they keep the silicone base in suspension. It is the time between application, and evaporation that the structure in the cured silicone is attacked, and compromised.

The PTFE itself is impervious to the carrier(s), and is just a molecular level application of Teflon.

There are charts in PDF format that describe common materials, and their reaction to various solvents. They are refereed to quite often in design/engineering circles. They also apply to knives.
This one is a site that lists the MOST common chemicals, and plastics...

http://www.plasticsintl.com/plastics_chemical_resistence_chart.html

"A" = no attack (on this site) that is what you want to see/use for your particular application (in most cases).

 

[RuLEoF2]

This one is a site that lists the MOST common chemicals, and plastics...

http://www.plasticsintl.com/plastics_chemical_resistence_chart.html

What an awesome resource. This is going to be very useful for many of my future projects.

Thanks!

 

[Zombie411]

I refer to these charts constantly.

Most people are totally unaware of what is in the most common "fix all's".
The second most common resource I use is "MSDS" or Material Safety Data Sheets.

Look up anything under a name brand, and find its components.
Compare the components to the application you have in mind, and it is a "go"/no go" or "EEhhh maybe".

Example:
WD-40 MSDS...

1 - Chemical Product and Company Identification
Manufacturer: WD-40 Company
Address: 1061 Cudahy Place (92110)
P.O. Box 80607
San Diego, California, USA
92138 –0607
Telephone:
Emergency only: 1-888-324-7596 (PROSAR)
Information: 1-888-324-7596
Chemical Spills: 1-800-424-9300 (Chemtrec)
1-703-527-3887 (International Calls) Chemical Name: Organic Mixture
Trade Name: WD-40 Aerosol
Product Use: Lubricant, Penetrant, Drives Out
Moisture, Removes and Protects Surfaces
From Corrosion
MSDS Date Of Preparation: 3/11/10

2 – Hazards Identification
Emergency Overview:
DANGER! Flammable aerosol. Contents under pressure. Harmful or fatal if swallowed. If swallowed, may be
aspirated and cause lung damage. May cause eye irritation. Avoid eye contact. Use with adequate ventilation.
Keep away from heat, sparks and all other sources of ignition.
Symptoms of Overexposure:
Inhalation: High concentrations may cause nasal and respiratory irritation and central nervous system effects
such as headache, dizziness and nausea. Intentional abuse may be harmful or fatal.
Skin Contact: Prolonged and/or repeated contact may produce mild irritation and defatting with possible
dermatitis.
Eye Contact: Contact may be irritating to eyes. May cause redness and tearing.
Ingestion: This product has low oral toxicity. Swallowing may cause gastrointestinal irritation, nausea,
vomiting and diarrhea. This product is an aspiration hazard. If swallowed, can enter the lungs and may cause
chemical pneumonitis, severe lung damage and death.
Chronic Effects: None expected.
Medical Conditions Aggravated by Exposure: Preexisting eye, skin and respiratory conditions may be
aggravated by exposure.
Suspected Cancer Agent:
Yes No X
3 - Composition/Information on Ingredients
Ingredient CAS # Weight Percent
Aliphatic Hydrocarbon 64742-47-8 45-50
Petroleum Base Oil 64742-58-1
64742-53-6
64742-56-9
64742-65-0 <25
LVP Aliphatic Hydrocarbon 64742-47-8 12-18
Carbon Dioxide 124-38-9 2-3
Surfactant Proprietary <2
Non-Hazardous Ingredients Mixture <10

4 – First Aid Measures
Ingestion (Swallowed): Aspiration Hazard. DO NOT induce vomiting. Call physician, poison control center
or the WD-40 Safety Hotline at 1-888-324-7596 immediately.
Eye Contact: Flush thoroughly with water. Remove contact lenses if present after the first 5 minutes and
continue flushing for several more minutes. Get medical attention if irritation persists.

Just one product, and one of four pages of info on it.

Edit:
For CAS numbers... They explain WHAT the unstated ingredient is.
CAS#... Aliphatic Hydrocarbon 64742-47-8 45-50
"Aliphatic Hydrocarbon" could be ANYTHING except water...
"64742-47-8 45-50" is the CAS#
"Kerosene" Cut an apple for your kid now!

If you see a CAS# LOOK IT UP! It's listed.

 

[jpm2]

WD-40 MSDS...
...

"64742-47-8 45-50" is the CAS#
"Kerosene" Cut an apple for your kid now!

I've always considered wd40 "aerosol kerosene".