Tempering in a fan assisted oven?

Joined
Oct 31, 2008
Messages
249
The deal is, the kitchen oven i normally temper in
has started to develop problems trying to get up to temperature.
When i just use the "normal" oven mode it won't reach my desired temp..
However if i use the fan assisted mode it will easily reach the temp.
Are there any reason why i wouldn't be able to temper my blades with it?

Thanks

Peder Visti
 
By fan assisted, I presume you mean a convection oven.

I can see no reason why a convection oven would create any problems for you in tempering knives.

- Greg
 
By fan assisted, I presume you mean a convection oven.

I can see no reason why a convection oven would create any problems for you in tempering knives.

- Greg

Yes thats what i mean, thank you both for the quick answers! Sounds like im good! Thanks again
(this forum is awesome) :D
Peder Visti
 
Fan assisted ovens are more likely to show an accurate temperature. Part of the reason why cooking recipes say knock 10 degrees off or 10 minutes is because the heat is more even and the on/off cycles are quicker.
 
Convection ovens are more accurate... especially if the elements are hidden... that is a HUGE advantage.(no infrared/radiant heat from glowing elements, to over temper your blade)
 
Convection ovens are more accurate... especially if the elements are hidden... that is a HUGE advantage.(no infrared/radiant heat from glowing elements, to over temper your blade)

Well that is nice to hear :thumbup: i just ordered a oven thermometer so i can so i can get an actual reading.
Thanks again
 
I'm not sure of the pros and cons of fan ovens, but where there is line-of-sight from the elements to the worpiece, the radiated heat from the elements can make a big difference to the actual temperature the blade reaches. Overheating due to radiation can be particularly bad where the section is thinnest, causing a softer edge than spine; the opposite of what we'd normally want.

The best simple fix I know of is to bury the blade in a tray of dry sand and temper for much longer than you would a bare blade.

The added thermal mass damps out any temperature variations and the fact that the blade is buried shields it from the radiated heat.

I appreciate it's not directly comparable to using a domestic oven, but some time ago, I put a series of thermocouples of different diameters in a HT oven I'd built and logged the temperatures during a tempering cycle.

The idea was that the different diameters would show the temperatures likely to be seen by the different thicknesses of steel at various distances from the edge of the blade.

The thermocouples were an exposed junction type, 0.5mm dia (.020"), 1.5mm dia (.060") and the control thermocouple was 6mm dia (1/4"). The cursor in the screenshot is at the peak temperature of the overshoot caused by radiative heating. Temperatures are in degC. The control setpoint was 250 degC.

GraphPIDto250deg.gif


The peak "edge" temperature in the above shot shows 119 degC above the setpoint; 214 degF, or about 5 Rockwell points softer than intended on O1.

GraphRampto250deg.gif


The next shot shows the effect of using a ramp/soak controller to ramp the temperature up slowly to the same setpoint; "only" 19 degC (34 degF) and about one Rockwell point.

The effect will be much less pronounced with a domestic oven, but could easily cost a couple of Rockwell points at the edge. To me it seems well worth avoiding the issue by using the tray-of-sand trick.

It will surprise no-one that I made some changes to the control setup on my HT oven as a result of my testing, and I'm happy with it now
 
Tim, thanks for sharing your testing! Your approach for trouble shooting and fixing the problem were excellent. Your approach and the fact that you had a data logger and multiple gauges of TC made me ponder if you are a process or mfg engineer?

As an aside, when dealing with some polymer processing equipment we will use TC with as fine as .003"/.075mm wires to catch rapid fluctuations or overshoots.
 
If using a home oven to do tempering here is a simple and cheap method of evening out the heat and cutting down on radiant over-heating.

Set the shelf in the oven center.
Place a sheet of steel on the shelf. 1/4" thick is good. It should allow 3" or more of clear space all around the sides of the oven for air flow.
Set three pieces of 1X1" steel bars to make a border around the sheet, leaving the front open. Set another sheet of steel on top of this.
Set the blade in the "steel box". If you want to, you can slide in a front bar of steel to close the box, but that isn't really necessary.
This will add a large thermal mass to even out the heating, and shield the blade from any direct radiant heat from the elements or flames.


If you have an oven thermometer or pyrometer, place the TC on the sheet next to the blade. Check it to see what the actual temperature the blade is getting to is. Adjust your oven as needed to hold at the desired temp.

The oven should be allowed to stabilize for about 15 minutes before putting in the blade, BTW.

If you have a data logger program and want to see how the oven really heats up, hook up the TC to the laptop and map the temp fluctuations as Tim did. Data logging TC units are pretty cheap now, and ebay always has them. Some log multiple TCs.

If you are using an old oven in your shop, you can build a PID controller and plug the oven into it. Set the oven on a higher temp, and set the PID at the target. Place the TC with the blade. When not in use for blades, you can cook pizza on the steel sheets :)
 
Wow, that is awesome info, could i use say a piece of heavy-walled square tubing that is closed in one end instead?
 
A ceramic 'baking stone' or ' pizza stone ' or bricks will do the trick also .They reduce temperature fluctuations .Always preheat.
BTW if this is your kitchen oven make sure the blade is cleaned of all oil .Reduces problems with wife or GF !
 
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