Templates for octagonal wa handles

[Cushing H.]

Ive made several octagonal wa handles … but have always sweated bullets while shaping them, fearing they will be out of shape, lopsided, or that I would sand in to the inside dowel of the assembly.

I remembered an earlier discussion where natlek said he had created metal octagonal “jigs” to be attached to the front and end of a handle to be used as guides to sand down to.

I now have those sanding jigs … but the question is how to temporarily attach them to the front and back of the handle without damaging them…. A drop of CA directly on the handle and metal piece (or will that destroy the end of the handle when separating the pieces?). Or maybe blue tape on each piece, with the facing tape glued together?(this is what i ido when fitting up scales for regular handles).

What has actual experience shown to work?

 

[Hubert S.]

I have used this method quite a bit and now use blue tape on the handle face only. Sometimes the templates are stuck on pretty good where you have to give them a pretty hard knock before they will come off. After I'm done, I let them soak in acetone for a while to get the glue off.

The tricky part is getting the template positioned right. It's easiest to first mark out a rectangle on each face so that the blade is centered and grind to that freehand. Then apply blue tape, trim with X-acto knife and just center the template by eye.

Here is a link to a thread I posted about it a while ago: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/natleks-wa-handle-jig.1749850/

 

[Ratatoskr]

Is a sander/abrasive belt the only method of stock removal you've got?

 

[Cushing H.]

Is a sander/abrasive belt the only method of stock removal you've got?

Technically i have a mini mill … which could be jigged up todo the shaping … but i wanted to try this template approach at least once

 

[Cushing H.]

I have used this method quite a bit and now use blue tape on the handle face only. Sometimes the templates are stuck on pretty good where you have to give them a pretty hard knock before they will come off. After I'm done, I let them soak in acetone for a while to get the glue off.

The tricky part is getting the template positioned right. It's easiest to first mark out a rectangle on each face so that the blade is centered and grind to that freehand. Then apply blue tape, trim with X-acto knife and just center the template by eye.

Here is a link to a thread I posted about it a while ago: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/natleks-wa-handle-jig.1749850/

Yeah … iv thought about the original placement thing a bit. I have a few ideas to try out. Thank you for the thread link

 

[Ratatoskr]

I can rattle off about nine ways to make an octagon on a woodworking bench but haven't voluntarily touched a sander in years. Let us see what you come up with!

Technically i have a mini mill … which could be jigged up todo the shaping … but i wanted to try this template approach at least once

 

[FredyCro]

I think the most important thing is squaring the handle to the blade. Even with handle pieces being square and all, you are going to get some misalignment in gluing. That's why I started doing the 2 step procedure and bedding the tang and then working on the handle separately. Once the handle is squared to the blade it's just marking the lines/tapers and grinding to them. Any irregularities on the belt sander get sorted out with a file.

 

[Cushing H.]

I think the most important thing is squaring the handle to the blade. Even with handle pieces being square and all, you are going to get some misalignment in gluing. That's why I started doing the 2 step procedure and bedding the tang and then working on the handle separately. Once the handle is squared to the blade it's just marking the lines/tapers and grinding to them. Any irregularities on the belt sander get sorted out with a file.

Hey Freddy. I actually do not have any problem with squaring the blade to the handle (whether it is an octagonal or "D" shaped Wa handle. I do a lot of dry fitting to establish the correct orientation, then I have a nice little jig that holds the handle/blade assembly firmly in a vertical position while the epoxy sets. As the epoxy starts to get firmer and firmer, I check, and correct for anything that has shifted. when the epoxy gets firm enough, you can make very small tweaks, and the thing then stays in place (again, still held firm in my handy wa assembly jig.

My question here is really only about getting the correct geometry on the octagonal handles (there is a lot of leeway in the shape of the D shaped handles.). so far I have not really messed one up .... but I am never quite satisfied with the taper, and I would like to create a system that makes it more difficult to break the symmetry when shaping the flattened octogon. At least in my mind (famous last words), using the templates firmly positioned on front and back of the handle should help alot in that regard.

 

[weo]

Do you have a height gague w/a scribe and a piece of granite? If so, first thing is to get your square (or rectangular) with the right taper from heel to blade, then you set your scribe how ever much of an octagon you want, and scribe both sides of every face and you'll be able to match the taper every time.

 

[Blankblank]

Do you have a height gague w/a scribe and a piece of granite? If so, first thing is to get your square (or rectangular) with the right taper from heel to blade, then you set your scribe how ever much of an octagon you want, and scribe both sides of every face and you'll be able to match the taper every time.

I wonder if theres an easy way to pull this off with a set of calipers .

Either way, a height gauge has been on my never ending list of knifemaking tools for a while now.

 

[weo]

I wonder if theres an easy way to pull this off with a set of calipers

A normal pen or pencil will work, you're just limited to the radius of the pencil. You could use something for a spacer if you want a higher line (see pic)

 

[Skiller1nc]

A normal pen or pencil will work, you're just limited to the radius of the pencil. You could use something for a spacer if you want a higher line (see pic)

I do this but using my hand or finder running along the blank as the "surface plate"

 

[Pinoy Knife]

so forgive my "Stupid" question here
but a Octagon is a 8 sided shape ? a square or rectangle is 4 sided ?
why not make a angled block to set whatever angle you need and use that to grind/sand those angles ? you could mount the block so it does not move (on the machine)
also this could easily be done on a Bandsaw. Table saw. Router.. i don't see the problem/challenge...

 

[Cushing H.]

so forgive my "Stupid" question here
but a Octagon is a 8 sided shape ? a square or rectangle is 4 sided ?
why not make a angled block to set whatever angle you need and use that to grind/sand those angles ? you could mount the block so it does not move (on the machine)
also this could easily be done on a Bandsaw. Table saw. Router.. i don't see the problem/challenge...

A couple responses. First, I am definitely artistically challenged .... what might seem effortless to some others to achieve a good looking final result is not so easy (or stress-free) to me. So .... I myself prefer a mechanical approach that reduces the "change it by eye and feel" approach that might work for others. Second, the "octagonal" Wa handle is not a true octagon. Yes it has eight sides, but it is "flattened" - being longer in dimension in height than in width .... so there are more angles and dimensions to set than if one were cutting out a true regular octagon. Third, the handle is tapered, being larger at the base than at the front of the handle.

The result is there are a LOT of dimensions to get right to have the final product look really nice. Over sand one of the corner facets and the handle looks lopsided. Bring one side in too far and the handle looks lopsided (same thing with the height) ... getting the corner facets to all be the same is probably the biggest challenge. then again, you need to get the taper front to back right ***while not messing up the facets around the circumference*** .... something easier said than done. It is **remarkably** easy to start chasing your tail in correcting thing .... ultimately ending up with a really ugly looking irregular shaped handle. Even then you can end up with a handle that has a base that is just too large looking .... or a front bolster that is just too small in diameter. Functional, yes, but definitely could/should be shaped in a way that is more elegant or less "clunky". Oh, also, because the handle is glued up from a number of different sections .... not all of the sections have the same square cross sections, and they may have rotated somewhat during the gluing up process .... so you are NOT starting with a nice neat cuboid shape.

In my mind, with the way I have approached shaping the handles so far (on the grinder), using the two end pre-shaped jigs on the ends has a good likelihood of helping to reduce the variables and produce a more consistent result - so I want to try it.

Ummmm ..... folks ..... this thread has diverged. I only asked about good/reliable ways to attach the templates to the end of the handle stack up - I did not ask about different ways to produce the octagonal shape, and I did not ask for comments like "what is the problem?" (most of us know that there are always multiple ways to accomplish something, and that for each of them there are *always* issues - and so is never just that simple). thank you to those who have answered the original question .... and ..... where is Natlek?????? is he on august vacation or off boar hunting somewhere???

 

[Hubert S.]

so forgive my "Stupid" question here
but a Octagon is a 8 sided shape ? a square or rectangle is 4 sided ?
why not make a angled block to set whatever angle you need and use that to grind/sand those angles ? you could mount the block so it does not move (on the machine)
also this could easily be done on a Bandsaw. Table saw. Router.. i don't see the problem/challenge...

There are a few difficulties. Many handles have metal spacers in them, so wood working tools like planes, routers, table saws won't work in general. The octagon also tapers, the front is typically smaller in both height and width. An angled work rest on a horizontal belt grinder or a disk grinder can help, but you still only ever see one of the two lines your grinding to, so it's easy to overshoot the back side while trying to grind to the line in the front. The template helps with that, because you hear and feel when you hit the line on the other side. The worst part is that even small errors are very visible, and it can be difficult to figure out where the error comes from and correct it, so you end up making the handle smaller and smaller in an attempt to get all the facets to look right.

 

[Natlek]

so forgive my "Stupid" question here
but a Octagon is a 8 sided shape ? a square or rectangle is 4 sided ?
why not make a angled block to set whatever angle you need and use that to grind/sand those angles ? you could mount the block so it does not move (on the machine)
also this could easily be done on a Bandsaw. Table saw. Router.. i don't see the problem/challenge...

Disc grinder with adjustable work rest and you can grind dodecahedron if you want
I think that this one have twelve or ten angles , I forget .All free hand on disc .

 

[DanF]

Ummmm ..... folks ..... this thread has diverged. I only asked about good/reliable ways to attach the templates to the end of the handle stack up - I did not ask about different ways to produce the octagonal shape, and I did not ask for comments like "what is the problem?" (most of us know that there are always multiple ways to accomplish something, and that for each of them there are *always* issues - and so is never just that simple). thank

I have noticed this also. You don’t even have to ask a question and you get answers

 

[Cushing H.]

I have noticed this also. You don’t even have to ask a question and you get answers

Hmmm. That is ripe with opportunities. One could ask a random, totally meaningless question, and receive a response that might change the world.

Imagine the possibilities

 

[Pinoy Knife]

A couple responses. First, I am definitely artistically challenged .... what might seem effortless to some others to achieve a good looking final result is not so easy (or stress-free) to me. So .... I myself prefer a mechanical approach that reduces the "change it by eye and feel" approach that might work for others. Second, the "octagonal" Wa handle is not a true octagon. Yes it has eight sides, but it is "flattened" - being longer in dimension in height than in width .... so there are more angles and dimensions to set than if one were cutting out a true regular octagon. Third, the handle is tapered, being larger at the base than at the front of the handle.

The result is there are a LOT of dimensions to get right to have the final product look really nice. Over sand one of the corner facets and the handle looks lopsided. Bring one side in too far and the handle looks lopsided (same thing with the height) ... getting the corner facets to all be the same is probably the biggest challenge. then again, you need to get the taper front to back right ***while not messing up the facets around the circumference*** .... something easier said than done. It is **remarkably** easy to start chasing your tail in correcting thing .... ultimately ending up with a really ugly looking irregular shaped handle. Even then you can end up with a handle that has a base that is just too large looking .... or a front bolster that is just too small in diameter. Functional, yes, but definitely could/should be shaped in a way that is more elegant or less "clunky". Oh, also, because the handle is glued up from a number of different sections .... not all of the sections have the same square cross sections, and they may have rotated somewhat during the gluing up process .... so you are NOT starting with a nice neat cuboid shape.

In my mind, with the way I have approached shaping the handles so far (on the grinder), using the two end pre-shaped jigs on the ends has a good likelihood of helping to reduce the variables and produce a more consistent result - so I want to try it.

Ummmm ..... folks ..... this thread has diverged. I only asked about good/reliable ways to attach the templates to the end of the handle stack up - I did not ask about different ways to produce the octagonal shape, and I did not ask for comments like "what is the problem?" (most of us know that there are always multiple ways to accomplish something, and that for each of them there are *always* issues - and so is never just that simple). thank you to those who have answered the original question .... and ..... where is Natlek?????? is he on august vacation or off boar hunting somewhere???

thanks for the response
i think a angled block mounted at say a 30 Degree angle maybe 4-6 inches long would still help with this..
the big challenge would be how to mount it on or next to the platten to stay put while shaping the handle length wise ??
i have found some Awesome 2 sided tape at "Tap Plastics" that held thin aluminum so well it bent trying to remove it !! it was like $10 for a roll
clean up after might be a problem !!! i think it is like 3M UHV tape !!
i just figure you are "Probably" better off having the means to pre set your "Bevel" angle whatever angle it is versus trying to "Free Hand" it ..
i do 6 inch long handles on Every knife .. and i bevel/round them "Free Hand" but im Rounding them not leaving them "Beveled"..
Hope this helps at least with a idea ..
Natleks idea of a disc is also not too bad ..

 

[Cushing H.]

thanks for the response
i think a angled block mounted at say a 30 Degree angle maybe 4-6 inches long would still help with this..
the big challenge would be how to mount it on or next to the platten to stay put while shaping the handle length wise ??
i have found some Awesome 2 sided tape at "Tap Plastics" that held thin aluminum so well it bent trying to remove it !! it was like $10 for a roll
clean up after might be a problem !!! i think it is like 3M UHV tape !!
i just figure you are "Probably" better off having the means to pre set your "Bevel" angle whatever angle it is versus trying to "Free Hand" it ..
i do 6 inch long handles on Every knife .. and i bevel/round them "Free Hand" but im Rounding them not leaving them "Beveled"..
Hope this helps at least with a idea ..
Natleks idea of a disc is also not too bad ..

But that is the very idea of using the templates on the ends. I dont really think of using them as freehanding. You grind vertically, then move the grind so it lines up parallel to an edge of the template, then move the grind in until it just kisses the appropriate edges of both templates. If you have placed the templates correctly, this locks in the flatness, angle, and taper of the bevel. Repeat seven more times and you have a finished handle (except for surface finish with finer grits)

I use this basic approach of sanding to two scribe lines all the time. The templates just save me multiple measuring and line scribings