TESTING practices

[Cobalt]

How where they tested? who tested them? Are they Biased or not? Is the maker trustworthy? Is the tester trustworthy? Are there special claims made by the maker?

Lets Face it all knives can be destroyed if you put enough pressure on them. Some will break fairly easy others will break after much abuse, but they all break. Same goes for edge holding, some last longer than others but they all dull eventually.

I'm not a Fan of Talonite yet, since I still have a knife on order being made for me of the stuff. I'll have it by the end of next month. All impressions and testing so far have been very positive on the stuff and most owners have great things to say. Cliff compares one blade(and only one) and all hell breaks loose in here. I'm sure Cliff will agree that it takes more than one sampling and one test to form an accurate conclusion about a material. I'm sure he and others will have a better idea when more blades are available for testing and are tested. So lets not start to conclusions about materials without having enough sampling.

Additionaly, the customer is ultimatelly responsible for his custom knife. When I ask a knifemaker to build me a knife out of A-2, D-2, 3V,...etc. is he the one responsible for the properties of the alloy? I don't think so. You knew the material that you were getting out of the blade.

I am having a stellite and a talonite blade made by Lightfoot. I also understand that deloro will be sending some stellite for testing to another party. Cliff has already tested Talonite and may be the recipient of the deloro blade. I have asked Lightfoot to test both blades before he ships them to me as he is completely impartial in this matter, and could care less if stellite or talonite fell off the face of the earth tomorrow. The talonite piece was from walt and I got the stellite 6K piece from Deloro a year ago. I will ask Lightfoot to compare these materials to the hardest steel he uses. This is still only one other test. And what if this test is positive? Now what? Conflict. In fact magazine tests in the pasts have been positive when compared to steels.

Maybe the people that already have blades made out of these materials can test them or send them to someone for testing.

This talonite debate has been going on for sometime and it's not going to end anytime soon, I'm sure.

 

[STIHL]

Then the light was shed, Amen

Good points,I can also break anything,Yodel is better at it then I am.

Should have seen what I did to a CRKT M16


------------------
Jay
Life is like a box of chocolates,never know what your gona git!

 

[Cobalt]

Jay, that's what I hate about Sees candy's, they give 1/4 of what you like and the rest suck.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Cobalt :

it takes more than one sampling and one test to form an accurate conclusion about a material.

There are only a couple of possible arguments you can use :

1) the material I looked at was flawed, it was not a good piece of Talonite

2) Allen Blade damaged the Talonite during the grinding

3) I don't know what I am doing and screwed up the work

4) I lied about what I saw

The only one that I think is possible is the first, you will have to decide yourself on the others. If Allen thinks the first or second is possible based on his experience with Talonite of course I would be open to having a replacement made. However, I have discussed the results with multiple makers who agree with me that what I saw is sensible given the material properties. R. J. Martin for example has commented in one of the threads.

There are other custom makers who have worked with Stellite alloys extensively in the past and obtained similar results but will not come out against it because of reactions similar to what Marion is getting. They however have discussed it with me on the phone in detail, for which I am thankful. I can repeat their work and be public about it as I am not selling knives so I don't need to be concerned about upsetting possible customers and secondly I am not bothered at all by the type of flak that Marion is getting.

-Cliff

 

[Cobalt]

Cliff, you know me well and know that I never thought that it could be items 3 and 4. However, it could easily be items 1 and 2. My point is that the more testing that goes on the more we will all know. When you test the next one you will know more.

When you broke the first Tusk, I'm sure most poeple thought it may have been a fluke, but after having gotten a second one with the exact same results was more conclusive, was it not.

When I get my first talonite knife from Lightfoot, I will have him send it directly to you first for edge testing, after he has tested and compared it to his other blades ground the same way. All this testing along with other testing will be happening in the next year, should give a fairly good idea as to performance. We will all know more including yourself.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Cobalt :

Cliff, you know me well and know that I never thought that it could be items 3 and 4.

Sorry I should have been clearer in the above, I was using "you" in the general sense and responding in part to the thread Marion started.

When you broke the first Tusk, I'm sure most poeple thought it may have been a fluke

Yes, I was one of them.

but after having gotten a second one with the exact same results was more conclusive, was it not.

Yes, but that is a little different. Allen has not came out and said what Kevin did (the first blade had a material flaw).

When I get my first talonite knife from Lightfoot, I will have him send it directly to you first for edge testing, after he has tested and compared it to his other blades ground the same way.

Sounds good to me, I have wanted to have a look at one of Lightfoots folders for awhile.
If possible, and this is totally up to you of course, could you keep what Lightfoot has to say under wraps until after I have described what I found. That would make for more independence in the two descriptions.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 03-12-2000).]

 

[Cobalt]

Agreed, I want to give Talonite the benefit of the doubt and let a lot of testing give conclusive results.

The lightfoot knives are fixed blades by the way, not folders. One is a full size Predator with micarta handles and the other may be an extended C-4 or whatever Greg wants to make of it, I told him I didn't much care. Both will have chisel grinds and are intended as fighters. The predator is in Stellite 6K and the other one will be in Talonite. I can also send you another Stellite 6k with a more conventional grind to test. I'll try to find that one and send it to you within a couple of weeks.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Sounds good to me. Drop me an email so we can work out the shipping details when the time comes. I'll sketch out the method I currently have planned and run it by you. It has changed since the MEUK review.

-Cliff

 

[Allen Blade]

Hello,

Nope the material Visually wasnt Flawed,

And second, I Dont "screw up" 170.00 a pound blade material. Ever!


Allen

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Allen to clarify the above, I don't believe either of those reasons. The behavior I saw was consistent for the entire edge, throughout the main body of the blade and made sense to me based on the known material properties.

-Cliff

 

[Walt Welch]

Cobalt; you said:

Additionaly, the customer is ultimatelly responsible for his custom knife. When I ask a knifemaker to build me a knife out of A-2, D-2, 3V,...etc. is he the one responsible for the properties of the alloy? I don't think so. You knew the material that you were getting out of the blade.

Well, Co, old friend, I agree with what you say, that the quality of the alloy is beyond the knifemaker's control. However, an important point you failed to mention is that the knifemaker should be responsible for making sure that the alloy selected is utilized optimally.

In plain English, the knifesmith should be cognizant of the qualities of the alloy, and use the best manufacturing techniques, blade geometry, sharpening technique, and match the alloy to the size of the knife.

Talonite (r) was initially difficult for Rob Simonich to sharpen. He had to use a microscope to examine the blade edge, and modify both his blade grinding, blade geometry and sharpening techniques to achieve optimal results.

Ed Scott found Talonite (r) difficult to grind, and, in fact, thought the billet I supplied him was faulty, and had inclusions in it. As it turned out, the billet was not the problem, it was Ed's grinding technique that was at fault. As you all know, Ed is a superlative knife maker, and the problems he encountered were as a result of his lack of experience with Talonite (r). After some information exchange with Rob Simonich, Ed fashioned a second billet into a blade without difficulty.

Another very good knifemaker made me a knife, but apparently made the edge too thin, and a piece of the edge peeled right off when Steve Harvey stuck it into the bottom of a plastic soft drink bottle and made a radial cut.

My point is that Talonite (r) demands a different approach than do most other alloys, and until knifesmiths become familiar with Talonite's (r) properties, it may be that any deficiencies encountered during testing may be due to deficiencies in the knifesmith's understanding of the alloy, with a resultant less than optimal blade.

I do not intend to disparage any of the knifesmiths involved; I simply wish to point out that, as with any new application of a material, there is a learning curve with respect to its' optimal use.

It is for this reason that I have contracted with two knifesmiths who are very familiar with the cobalt alloys, Tom Mayo and Kit Carson, to make two knifes, one each of Talonite (r) and Stellite (r), and have these knives submitted to an independent tester for evaluation.

I will keep you informed. Walt

 

[Walt Welch]

One more thought. Cliff has paid attention to the blade geometries when he compared Talonite (r) with steels. When these geometries were not similar, he promised more tests with more similar blade geometries.

As for Cliff's overall testing procedures, Will York said it best:

Cliff; thank you for your unyielding tenacity in search of meaningful comparisons which can accomodate comprehensive inquiry.

I think that Cliff has done an excellent job in testing various aspects of knives and steels.

I would just submit to you, Cliff, that it may be that Talonite (r) and different steels perform best at DIFFERENT blade geometries. I will leave it to you to determine the merit of this hypothesis, and to determine as well, the best manner in which to test it. I would be delighted to be of assistance should you desire it. Walt

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Walt :

he promised more tests with more similar blade geometries.

I have a 52100 blade also ground by Allen Blade, same geometry to the Talonite MEUK. Heat treat was done by Ed Caffery, who by the way is very nice to talk to and gave me much more information than I expected when I asked him about the performance of his 52100.

Marion has the 52100 blade now, as I was interested in his perspective on it. Once he is finished with it I will repeat the work with it. I also have several blades from Will coming in varying geometries, some Cobalt based alloys some not. Cobalt has also said he would drop me a few and I will look at them as well.

Talonite (r) and different steels perform best at DIFFERENT blade geometries.

I would strongly support this. A blade has to be crafted so as to work towards its strengths and away for its weaknesses. I think D2 is an excellent blade steel - make a 18" machete out of it however and it would perform rather poorly.

I am open to suggestions as to how to sharpen Talonite, and/or to reprofile the blade so as to best present its performance. That is why I started the various threads I did before I did any serious work with the blade. I am still open to this possibility of course.

If someone has noticed something that I did that would have skewed the performance of the Talonite blade and thus caused me to misrepresent its abilities, by all means point it out. It is one hell of a nice blade profile and I would be very pleased if the performance was able to be raised significantly. As well as if there is an area in which it performs strongly that I have overlooked by all means let me know.

-Cliff

 

[Cobalt]

Walt, I agree completely with what you have said. I also agree with others have said about talonite's edge rolling making it appear to cut less. It is good to get independent testing done with different people. You will do this, as I will and several others. This will give a considerable amount of knowledge to all on here in the next year, no doubt.

I also agree that not all knifesmiths can work with these alloys. Lightfoot, to my knowledge has not worked with Talonite or Stellite. He will no doubt, have a rude awakening, when he gets on the grinder. I have faith that he will do an excellent job, since everything that I have seen of his is of excellent quality. I think he uses his shiny bald head for the final polishing process.

It is taking a very long time to get the testing that we have been waiting for, but I'm glad for it, since I will be here to witness it, good or bad.

Walt, I'm glad to see that you recognize Cliff's hard work, since he deserves recognition for the hard work that he has done and the format that he has put his web site in, impressive.

 

[Cobalt]

Cliff, I suggest you talk at length with someone who has used both of these alloys alot. Simonich, Carson, Mayo all have alot of experience and they probably know of users who have had the stuff for many years. I think this is a learning process for all of us. I do not seem to have a problem sharpening my Stellite 6K with regular spyderco sharpmaker. But I have not used the talonite so cannot say about that.