Testing Protocol

Joined
Feb 1, 2004
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360
I created this thread to calmly discuss testing protocols. For example, I propose a few tests:

For large knives and khukuris:
amount of chops it takes to halve a 1/2" thick green sapling (what species?)
amount of force it takes to halve rope (what kind of rope etc?)

etc. etc. What do you folks propose? I have a Kabar that I mainly use for chopping green saplings and 550 cord, I would like to see it's performance compared to something like a Battle Mistress or khukuri.
 
Ok calmly.

Why not replace the sapling with something with more repeatablitly such as a standard FAS 2X2? While not "green" it would provide more consistancy test to test so you could see a direct comparision.
 
Not sure. My first thought would be that it would only make it softer, but thats purely a guess. One thing for sure is that you would be introducing a variable into the test again because no one would soak the wood the same (ie time frame related to size of wood) so I would vote to use it as it.

No two 2X2s will be the same to begin with due to knots, moisture content etal. But, at least it would be a starting point for some comparision. At least that is how I see it.
 
Why would want to reproduce sap? What you want to evaluate is the impact resistance while chopping, so I think any material is good, as long as you perform your tests with the same material every single time.

What do you think?
 
I've always liked four materials for control testing (which is what we are talking about here).

20# typing paper
Manilla rope
U-haul packing boxes
FAS 2X4 or 2X2

All of these can be had in any town. They are pretty consistant batch to batch. And you can test all the differant aspects of a knifes performance on them.

For field testing anything really goes and is a totally differant animal.
 
I want to evaluate whether one design is better against binding woods or not. And if one design just chops better in general. I believe that the chopping could be achieved with 2x2s, but what would accurately represent sap? If one knife is more polished than another, or has less surface area exposed that knife would chop wet woods better.
 
All I could suggest is try it and see. I honestly don't know if it would make a differance. If wet seems harder than I would say go with it. Just record how long you soaked it so that you can repeat it next time.
 
I think it would help to think of what users would really do with their knives. Therefore tests would be different for different types of knives.

For example I use a Kabar for chopping stakes, clearing brush and digging small holes. I could imagine testing the blades wear resistance against abrasive compounds such as small rocks and dirt, the amount of chops it took to cut a 1/2" sapling etc. The problem is taking these field type tests and somehow finding a controlled and reproducible way of replacing them.
 
Not sure if there is a controlled way of testing that type of use.

Best you can do is use the knife in its intended application document and report your findings and report them fairly and honestly.

Thats really the differance between field and control testing. Well, I guess one would be control testing the other would be a field review.

But when push comes to shove. Use the tool fairly as it was designed, document the usage and report it honestly. If you do that, you should do a pretty good job.

One pitfall I have noted in field testing is that some reviewers push the tools way too far and it draws fire. (not starting a fight just pointing something out). Unless the maker asked you to do destructive type tests, I would stay away from them. Knives are cutting tools and should not be used to pry, dig or any other non-cutting type tasks. If you do, you will end up drawing fire. If the maker asks you to, then have a ball. Be sure to point out that the maker asked you to do this though to avoid confussion.

Have fun.
 
I have an alternative approach to trying to control the materials. Obviously, you want to control the materials as much as possible. So, if you want to do some test with a carefully-chosen material, that's fine by me. However, cutting natural materials means you run into things that aren't controlled -- and in some ways, that's the whole point. Finding out what happens when I run into a particularly dirty piece of carpet, or particularly dry piece of wood, or whatever -- this is where a lot of the learning and surprises happen.

So, what do I do to control things in this case? Well, I never test one knife by itself. I'll go a step further and say that if you test a knife by itself, you're getting results that are extremely difficult -- to the point of being useless for most people -- to interpret. Someone experienced enough can interpret the results, but I still don't like it. Here's a quick example: I test a knife on a particular type of manilla rope, and it makes 300 cuts before it won't slice paper anymore. Is that good? Bad? Mediocre? Who knows -- I certainly don't. But, if you always test your knives against a couple of other "benchmark" knives, all of a sudden that result has meaning. If I test all my folders against a well-regarded benchmark like a Spyderco endura, and the endura does 250 cuts before it won't slice paper, and the new test knife does 300 cuts, well, now I know the test knife holds an edge pretty damn good.

So, my cardinal testing rule: always test your new knife-under-test with a benchmark knife or two. Try to use the same type of benchmark knife throughout your testing, through the months and years. That will give you a way to compare knives from multiple tests, even if other variables have changed. And other variables will change, including your skill at making particular types of cuts. But because you always test against a benchmark knife, the results of the benchmark knife go up also, so you still have at least a finger-to-the-wind basis by which to compare knives.

Joe
 
Good point Joe. The only time I used a benchmark at the same time was during the testing of LM1. Generally I would just refer back to old numbers. But given the varibles in materials, using the benchmark head to head would eliminate (or reduce) the impact of varibles.

Very good point indeed.
 
R.W.Clark said:
Knives are cutting tools and should not be used to pry, dig or any other non-cutting type tasks.


Well, the thing is that there are some knives that can be used to pry and dig without serious damage and THAT sets a THE standard of quality and durability that just few steels can provide. Knifemakers that keep complaining over and over again that knives shouldn't be used for digging and prying do so because they know the knives they make CANNOT withstand those heavy tasks.
 
Dalko said:
Knifemakers that keep complaining over and over again that knives shouldn't be used for digging and prying do so because they know the knives they make CANNOT withstand those heavy tasks.

Or they don't design their knives to do that ;)
My .02 is that people need to understand (Some, not all, don't) that knives are designed only to cut. That the only knives that are usable for prying, etc. will state or acknowledge that ability.

Anywho...
 
KnifeAddictAK said:
Or they don't design their knives to do that ;)
My .02 is that people need to understand (Some, not all, don't) that knives are designed only to cut. That the only knives that are usable for prying, etc. will state or acknowledge that ability.

Anywho...


Under certain circumstances, you can be called upon doing abusive tasks like prying and/or digging and you certainly don't want your knife to experience failure.

And as I said, there are knives that cut AND can be used to pry and/or dig and THAT sets the standard for heavy use knives.
 
This is about testing standard not knife standards. Lets not let this tread get ugly. I agreed to play nice. Can we all do the same please.
 
R.W.Clark said:
This is about testing standard not knife standards. Lets not let this tread get ugly. I agreed to play nice. Can we all do the same please.

OK, but I hope you realise you're the one that created trouble on two or three forums recently.

Secondly, I know this thread is about testing standard. I said that because you said knives shoudn't be used for other tasks than cutting and I disagree, so do many people.
 
R.W.Clark said:
Good point Joe. The only time I used a benchmark at the same time was during the testing of LM1. Generally I would just refer back to old numbers. But given the varibles in materials, using the benchmark head to head would eliminate (or reduce) the impact of varibles.

And not just differences in materials! Some types of cutting -- chopping and limbing, for example -- take skill, and you'll get better and better even if the materials remain very consistent.
 
R.W.Clark said:
Not sure if there is a controlled way of testing that type of use.

Best you can do is use the knife in its intended application document and report your findings and report them fairly and honestly.

Thats really the differance between field and control testing. Well, I guess one would be control testing the other would be a field review.

But when push comes to shove. Use the tool fairly as it was designed, document the usage and report it honestly. If you do that, you should do a pretty good job.

One pitfall I have noted in field testing is that some reviewers push the tools way too far and it draws fire. (not starting a fight just pointing something out). Unless the maker asked you to do destructive type tests, I would stay away from them. Knives are cutting tools and should not be used to pry, dig or any other non-cutting type tasks. If you do, you will end up drawing fire. If the maker asks you to, then have a ball. Be sure to point out that the maker asked you to do this though to avoid confussion.

Have fun.

I will keep this in mind as I test my knives, but aren't some knives like Striders made to dig and pry?
 
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