The 15200 Damascus worked!

Kevin Wilkins

Kevin Wilkins

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Oct 7, 1998
Messages
1,487
Well I said I'd keep you guys posted... The blacksmith here in Berlin managed to forge me a bar of 15200 / 1.2235 with 255 layers random pattern. 1.2235 is about 0.75 % Carbon spring steel. He said welding the 15200 was really difficult due to burning and I don't think I can talk him into making me anymore. :-( Said it took him 2 days using a large air hammer.

I rough flat ground the stuff today and am soaking the bar in ferric chlorid now to look at the pattern but the welds are really good and it's abot the toughest steel I've tried to grind. I'll anneal it again before I have it flat ground.

Then I have to see about getting 2 knives out of it: one for the smith and one for me....

Anybody got any ideas on what would be an interesting temp for hardening the stuff?

PS Today's the Love Parade here in Berlin and there are 1.000.000 people dancing wildly to Techno Music in the park. That's no exagerated: 1.000.000 people.

------------------
www.wilkins-knives.com


 
Kevin
It sounds great. I wish I could have been a mouse in the corner to watch the forging. It will take anealling temp. of 1440 degrees F
for an hour then slow cool to room temp. I do it twice for straight 52100. You can probably do it in one. Hardening takes to criticle temp. (which is when it goes non-magnetic) then quenching. You can use a simple magnet to check periodicly as you are heating the blade. Quenching can be done in mineral oil that should be heated
slightly to about 160 to 175 degrees F.
Tempering should be at about 360 degrees F.
for an hour then air cool to room temp.
I always leave about a 1/16 of an inch on
the cutting edge for two purposes: one the edge being alot thinner will heat up quicker
and getting it too hot before the rest of the
blade is ready won't due it any good. Second
I believe that it will preserve some carbon
so the blade doesn't have to be sharpened a couple of times before it starts to hold a
good edge. I have a way to check if additional temper is needed after final grind
if you want to shoot me an e-mail I'll give you the info.

Hope i've helped more than hindered. It would be great to see pictures when your done.

goshawk

------------------
http://www.imt.net/~goshawk The race is not always to the swift, but he who hangs loose.


[This message has been edited by goshawk (edited 10 July 1999).]

[This message has been edited by goshawk (edited 10 July 1999).]
 
You first may want to normalize this billet . Heat to 1625 (885c). Then cool in still air .
Annealling from the asm book recommends 1460 deg f (795c) cool quickly to 1380f (750 c). Then continue cooling to 1250 (675c) at 10 deg f(6 c) per hour. Or for the anneal you can go 1460 f (795c) cool quickly to 1275 (690 c) then nold for 16 hrs. Then turn the furnace off until cool.

Hardening
1550 f (845 c) quench in oil ( trans fluid works well) Pre heat the oil to 175 f.
Tempering
temper two times at 350 f (175c) for 1 hr each time. This will give you 62-64 rc (to hard for knife blades) IMHO. I would go to 450 f for a end hardness of 58 rc.
Good luck


------------------
Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
Take a look!!!




[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 10 July 1999).]
 
Thanks guys! Sorry about that typo. Of course that was 52100. I guess I was too excited. :-)

------------------
www.wilkins-knives.com


 
Kevin the treatments I gave you are a mix with 52100. These are from experience with
a lot of 52100 and I have also found that trans fluid cools alot faster than mineral
oil heated to 160 F and will sometimes cause
problems.

goshawk
 
What is in the mix? If the steel is differnt -then there should be an average done with both steels to find the proper heat treating range. NO OFENSE- but guessing critical temp with a magnet is more detremental to this type of steel than trans fluid if you know what your doing. Also tempering range, and normalizing first are why you may be having problems with the trans fluid not the fluid itself. I can see lots of warpage and stress problems without following procedure . If this steel is mixed with L6 I know there will be problems.
So what is in the mix . Ill read the book that has the facts and let you know how to do it right! :]
If it is 1075 then YOU NEED A FAST QUENCH 2 SECONDS FOR THAT STEEL . I use it all the time.

------------------
Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
Take a look!!!




[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 12 July 1999).]
 
The 2 steels are:
1.3505 ( 100 Cr 6 ) this corresponds to 52100
C: 1.00
Si: 0.27
Mn: 0.42
P: o.o14
S: 0.004
Cr 1.39
Ni: 0.08
Cu: 0.06

These are the Mill analysis values for the lot of steel I have.

The second steel is: 1. 2235 ( 80 Cr V 2 ) Don't think there is a US number for that steel. I don't have the Mill analysis values but the steel guide gives the folowing ranges:

C: 0.75 - 0.85
Si: 0.25 - 0.40
Mn: 0.30 - 0.50
P: 0.030
S: 0.030
Cr: 0.40 - 0.70
V: 0.15 - 0.25

This steel is listed as being used for paper knives, saws and machine tools for machining non-ferrous metals.


The blacksmith who did the forging said his main problem was with the 52100 burning very easily.

He did manage to make a bar with 255 layers which I roughly flat ground to check if the welds were ok. And they seem to be all solid. I tested the pattern in ferric chloride and get a rather understated pattern that resembles oak wood.

That bar is hard as can be right now. That's how I kow it must still be stress relived and annealed.

I certainly appreciate all you guys time and information.

------------------
www.wilkins-knives.com


 
It may seem out dated but it isn't. Using a magnet that is-- I've checked it against my
Paragon furnace and it works for several steels that I use for knives. With two fairly high carbons mixed together I and I
emphasize I -- have found that trans fluid
cools too quick and has caused brittleness
in SOME cases. I DO normalize my blades and
anneal and triple harden ( some quad) and temper and check them by running the cutting edge over a brass rod to see if they ripple (too soft) or if they chip (too hard) to get the right TEMPERING temp. I do alot of experimenting and I have found that the book knowledge that the companies put out isn't aways the best for making knives. For instance most 52100
when made into round bars is forged at 1800 to 2000 degrees. That is too hot to make a good blade out of 52100. Thats why I do alot of experimenting on my own. no I'm not against book knowledge I'v got an MS degree, but what is in the books I take with a grain of salt. An example if your interested --take a look at the enigeering books that were written 15 years ago that were declared gospel..... they have been changed drasticly. Most are completly out of date. I've learned alot from reading Ed Fowler and Wayne Goddard over the years but I don't just automaticly take what they have written for the best way to do things just because they are Mastersmiths...or becase they are published authors or because their knives are shown in knife mags. The point is I've given advice on this forum but have told people to EXPERIMENT. With softer steel mixed with high carbon I use trans fluid!!!!! I was advising caution on two relitively high carbons------Evidently I'm ruffling feathers because I'm new to the forum. I will stay off...

goshawk


------------------
http://www.imt.net/~goshawk The race is not always to the swift, but he who hangs loose.


[This message has been edited by goshawk (edited 13 July 1999).]

[This message has been edited by goshawk (edited 13 July 1999).]
 
No Feather ruffled here . Please continue to post. Its just that there are so many HOWL AT THE MOON, Etch in sheep piss , Magnetic north
to quench, quench in snow only on full moon ,
I use butter to quench BULL s_it ways of making a the steel hard that.. I have reverted using the American Society of metals
Heat Treaters Guide.

I just feel that they have a section on THIN SECTIONS that works great for blades and you know the end result.

So I was just stating that if your going to do it do it right. Thats all.

Also do you want all the carbides in solution for a knife blade?

Please continue to post . :] As for the feathers no problem.

There are many ways to get down the path....
I just choose what I feel is the right way with history behind the path I choose.

------------------
Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
Take a look!!!




 
The two steels have chrome in them Kevin . This may be the cause of the non contrasting pattern. A better choice may have been a plain carbon. The problem here is that 52100 is a non forgiving steel when mixed. If the fellow who forged it got it to hot (as you stated) You may want to normalize more than once to get the grain back to size if it will come back. When you etch this steel you may want to try nitric acid in a weakend solution tho get the the offset you want in the differnt steel. This acid is dangerous and health risks are involved so be careful. The etch with this solution does not take as long as the FC solution most often used.

------------------
Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
Take a look!!!




[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 13 July 1999).]
 
I'm certainly gonna take that billet and have it normalized and annealled. If the knives made from it end up as hard and tough as the billet is now, well I won't be complaining... :-)

I like patternwelded steel that doesn't scream at you with the contrast. Thing was, I had to drum up 2 types of steel fast and those were the best I could find on short notice.

Once it's etching time for the blades I'll probably take them over to a fellow knife maker's here and get him to etch them for me. He has some serious acids - which I don't have - and knows how to use them too. I always appreciate safety warnings. Better safe than sorry.

Once I get the knives finished from this billet I'll post photos.



------------------
www.wilkins-knives.com


 
Sounds like your using your head here.
The noralizing will be of great help to you when the blade is complete and you go for the heat treat. If its a big blade you may want to consider sub anealling after you grind .
Some do this and some dont . With 52100 I do because of its properties. It is great steel but a pain in the butt to work with at the heat treat and forging stages. If the blade is going to be a thin flat grind (my favorite) I suggest it. :]

------------------
Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
Take a look!!!




 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top