The 4th & The Flag - This is NOT a speech!

Blackdog

Blackdog

Joined
Apr 27, 1999
Messages
620
We Americans are on the eve of another celebration of our Independence Day. There will be speeches given by people far more eloquent and educated than I. My only wish is to let my feelings be known on two items that are very important to me.

First,To our men and women in uniform:

I, like so many other members of BFC, am a veteran. When our time in uniform was over, we passed the safekeeping of our flag and our country over to you. We look up, these many years later, and see our flag still flying and our nation still free. You have done a great job, you have kept the faith and you have made us proud. Thank You

Second, to those who would desecrate our flag:

The law says that you have a right to burn or otherwise desecrate our flag as part of your freedom of expression. I have no problem with that, as long as you respect my right to pound you into dog meat for doing so. I can't be more fair than that.

Have a great & safe 4th of July.

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Blackdog
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Well, I hate to see people disrespect our country like that, but it is their right. I think violence is a little extreme to protect some cloth and dye, even if does represent the USA. My favorite quote on the subject is from a WWII veteran, who said that, while it saddens him to see the flag desecrated, the reason he fought, and so many of his friends died, was so that people could burn the flag if they felt the need.

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
Blackdog,

You have said it most eloquently. Thank you!!! If someone has the bad taste of burning our flag, be advised not to do it in front of a veteran .

Rick
 
i dunno-
i was in one of our vets rooms a couple of days ago (i work at a V.A.). there was some little news glitch on about someone burning Israeli and American flags in protest - over i guess in Palestine. i asked the vet if this bothered him. he said, don't let it, that's what they want it to do. and then he said, besides, i fought for our COUNTRY, not for a FLAG. i personally can see the logic in that. i know that flags are necessary to rally the troops around and for symbolism- but he made me think, it is only a symbol. it's not your wife, daughter, son, father, mother, or country. my uncle Pat, died at 96 and saw an awful lot after stepping off the boat from Ireland, told me that some founding fathers had actually cut pieces off of the early flags if they needed patches (i guess for clothing, i'm not sure). and let's not forget the Liberty Bell- the founding fathers in Philadelphia tried to sell it as scrap metal. of course, they saw the acts of liberty as being more important that the symbols themselves. symbols can inspire. but they shouldn't lead anybody to commit violence. that's not moral.
that's not American. of course, many historians and skeptics will say that the entire "Grand Experiment in Freedom" was nothing more than a bunch of well-off white guys trying to create their own agenda for a ruling class in a new world. guess they're entitled to their opinion as well.
Off to sip my Yuengling (America's oldest Brewery, dontcha know!).

 
Originally posted by KELT34:

"of course, many historians and skeptics will say that the entire "Grand Experiment in Freedom" was nothing more than a bunch of well-off white guys trying to create their own agenda for a ruling class in a new world. guess they're entitled to their opinion as well"

Wow. I really don't know how to respond to someone (obviously not KELT34) who would say this. But then I grew up before 1984 and PC. Folks, this country's model of freedom has inspired the world. I'm proud to have served and proud to come from a family of veterans. I saw people burn draft cards and burn flags when I was younger. America remains. Freedom means putting up with jerks, but they have to put up with me, too.
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KELT34,
off topic, but....

you had to bring up yuengling didn't you?? didn't you???

argh, I live in frickin Ohio, right next door, and can't score any..

curse those people at penn state who showed me a real beer (as opposed to rolling rock)
 
Nothing like a little senseless violence to put you in the holiday spirit! Jeeze....

Freedom of speech means tolerating the speech of those you don`t agree with. How long before that lesson sinks in?
 
Tom-
yeah, i know...
Yuengling's good stuff, huh?? oops- just spilled a little on my shirt. oh well, just let it dry up. oooops- my hand slipped whilst typing this. oh well, just mop it up. PLENTY MORE in the fridge....
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Sorry, Tom, just couldn't resist! a friend of mine takes trips up to Canada for hunting, fresh air breaks, etc., always brings a case of Yuengling Lager with him; his friends love it. Even better- the PA Renaissance Faire- they are close enough to the brewery that the brewery sends trucks down with DRAFT kegs in them. Just back the truck up to the stand and put a tent up and- instantly a line of thirsty smiling men appears out of nowhere!
p.s.- i wouldn't say one way or the other what the founding fathers had in mind collectively. Some were noble, some were along for the ride. Blacks and women weren't included in their vision; arguments can be made on both sides as to why they thought the way they did on those issues. End result is i'm here; don't want to be anywhere else. would love to have enough PAC money to do some tree-shaking out there in the political world, but i do have a vote, a voice. maybe the day is coming (maybe already here some would say) when those things will not be enough and will not do enough in this land of ours. THAT is when the great experiment has failed. and that is also when it will be too late to do anything about it. Scrap the Liberty Bell. Burn the Flag. There will be no reason to mind one way or the other on that day... sad but most people are more interested in what lifeline the contestant will use on Regis's show.
 
Gee,for those who forgot,we swear our oath to The Constitution against all enemies,foreign and domestic.

That would include Klinton/algore.
 
Blackdog -- as long as you, in turn, respect their right to have you thrown in jail after you "pound them into dogmeat". Remember, all they did was destroy a piece of cloth that is their personal property.

You don't have the right to inflict violence on someone because you disagree with their views. That's kinda what the constitution is all about -- especially the first ammendment. You do have the right to voice your disagreement as loudly and obnoxiously as you want.

[This message has been edited by Joel Stave (edited 07-05-2000).]
 
I am not a violent person, but I have seen more violence in my lifetime than most men will ever witness. It was the nature of the business I was in, it came with the territory. I avoid violence whenever possible. But, there are some situations that will (at least with me) initiate a physical confrontation.

Abuse an animal around me and I will get as physical as it takes to stop you. Physically threaten my loved ones in any way and I will instantly become your most serious problem in life. Perform an act of violence, in my presence, against my country or my flag and you will not walk away unmarked. I may go to jail for my actions. So be it. I am willing to live with the consequences of my choices.

There are some things in life worth fighting for. My flag is one of them. I can't bring myself to believe that it's just another symbol or just another piece of cloth. I've seen it draped over the coffins of too many people that I cared about. To desecrate the flag is to dishonor their memory.



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Blackdog
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Blackdog i say amen, if you dont love it leave it. the second amendment only gives you freedom of speech,I am sorry but desecrating the flag is an action and the first amendment does not cover that in my book.If you want to desecrate something grab your panties and have your way with them
 
The first ammendmet gives you freedom of expression, not just speech. Speech is only one form of expression. Don't get me wrong, I don't like it when someone desecrates a symbol of freedo, but would we be able to call this freedom if burning a piece of cloth was enough to justify violence? I think not.

--JB

P.S., the second ammendment is the freedom to own guns ammendment, which is also a good one.

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
I too have seen some violence. Most of it in RVN in 1967. I also knew some guys whose names are on the Wall. And I also attended a few funerals where the casket was covered with the flag. The sacrifice of these men will never, ever be diminished by any stupid act of flag burning. If some idiot wants to burn the flag in protest of whatever, I say let him/her do it. That is a freedom that is guaranteed to all. It is a reflection on the flag burner only. It certainly is no reflection on either the flag or on anyone who served. And, frankly, it is simply too ignorant and too inconsequential to fight over. Just my opinion.
 
I pledge allegiance to the FLAG of the United States of America; and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Desecrating the flag of our nation is not the same as desecrating a normal piece of cloth. It is a symbol of our Nation; a symbol for which thousands have fought and died. Some things are above the norm, and deserve a higher respect. Some liberal judge said it is OK to burn our flag? Outrageous!
 
I feel fortunate to have the freedom for which so many before me paid such a mighty price. I can't thank them but I can and do respect and honor them.
There are places where desecrating a flag could cost a person their freedom or even their life. I am fortunate not to live there
and again thankful for those that paid such a price for me to have that freedom.
We are all fortunate to be able to sit here and discuss this and anything we want to discuss without fearing somebody coming in the middle of night taking us away never to be seen again.
It's frightening to think of what it could be like if not for those that gave so much.
Very frightening.
They will always have my respect, thanks and I will hold them in a position of honor.
The flag will be there to remind me of them if it's flying on top of the capital or being desecrated by some fool.
 
Blackdog,

I did not read any replies because I wanted to respond to your posting without prejudice. I agree totally with your sentiments and can hear the pain of your voice. This country does not appreciate it's veterans especially those from the Korean war and the Vietnam War, which were not really "wars" right? I prayed for our country on the 4th but have very little hope for it's future, the world has changed, and I fear our country, for which we fly the flag every 4th of July will be swallowed up in the coming years by the environmentalists, the globalists, and the financiers, all of whom control the MONEY, we need to get that control back.
 
Enivonmentalists control money? Not last time I checked. Of course, oil companies and whatnot do control lots of money, which is why we are spending so much now to clean up what we're just finding out that they did years ago. And you probably didn't know that it's cheaper for companies to clean up their act, did you? That's what the oil companies do with their money, since it pays them to not have you know that.

Okay, back to the flag, I actually find myself agreeing with TomW for once, my father is a veteran of Korea, and I can't ever see him doing violence to protect the flag. And he's been exposed to flag-burning before (law enforcement in DC, during the 60s), so this isn't hypothetical.

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
aah the 60s- Hard hats Vs the hippies
Was that manhatten? Love our country MY WAY or leave it. Think the way i think or I'll hit you with this 2x4. My father being a veteran of WW2, losing family in the war would get deeply upset, not by burning the flag but by people sewing the flag upside down on the seat of their pants which was popular then. Still he would never think of
breaking the laws or do anything voilent as much as it hurt him.
I guess we both learned something from our fathers.
 
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