The balance point of a Bagwell Bowie

[Dr Heelhook]

Approximately where is the balance point on a Bill Bagwell fighting Bowie knife generally located?

 

[BladeScout]

JParanee

 

[osprey888]

What type of Bagwell fighting bowie are you referring to? Each bowie that he makes will differ, but there is a also a matter of whether you are talking a fighting bowie of the type such as the four in my avatar or a Hell's Belle with C-guard or other long bowie.

 

[Dr Heelhook]

What type of Bagwell fighting bowie are you referring to? Each bowie that he makes will differ, but there is a also a matter of whether you are talking a fighting bowie of the type such as the four in my avatar or a Hell's Belle with C-guard or other long bowie.

I was first and foremost thinking about the Hell's Belle with the C-guard and 11 inch blade.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

I was first and foremost thinking about the Hell's Belle with the C-guard and 11 inch blade.

How about you contact Bagwell & ask him!

 

[osprey888]

I’ll have some info and photos of 4 different Hell’s Belles tomorrow to give a direct view. Cheers! Larry

 

[Dr Heelhook]

I’ll have some info and photos of 4 different Hell’s Belles tomorrow to give a direct view. Cheers! Larry

That'd be great, thanks!

 

[osprey888]

Got behind the 8-ball yesterday. Took the photos but ran out of time. Here we go again.

Bill [as you probably already know] crafts each knife to match the physical body characteristics of the individual for whom the knife is intended. As such, each will vary with regard to dimensions, droop/bend of the stag [if used], blade thickness, etc. Many of the fighting bowies like the ones in my avatar will have blade thicknesses at the ricasso from about 0.40" to about 0.30". His Hell's Belles tend to have thinner blades that run in the appox 0.28 to 0.25 inches because of the longer blades, with less extreme distal taper than you will typically find in the shorter blade fighting bowies.

I am going to attach 6 photos. The first is of four carbon Hell's Belles. From top to bottom the handles are ebony, blackwood, cocobolo and black locust, with blade lengths of the top one at 10.5 inches and the other three in the 11.5-11.75" length range. The next four photos will show the balance points of the four. The shorter one has a balance point slightly closer to the hilt as you will see; the other three are all pretty close to the same relative point. The final, sixth, photo shows a 10.5-inch damascus Hell's Belle with cocobolo dogbone handle. Again, you will see the balance point is just about the same.

Bottom line: Balance points are well forward of the hilt. Viewing Bill's video's and reading some of his materials will provide the "why."

Hope this helps to provide a visualization. Cheers! Larry

 

[Dr Heelhook]

I couldn't have asked for a better answer, thank you so much . I have had a special fascination for these knives for a long time, they are the ultimate Bowie knives IMO. I'm getting into knife making myself and currently finishing my first Bowie. It's not gonna be anywhere near as graceful as the Bagwells, but it's a fun process:

 

[john april]

Dr do you have bill's book, bowies and battle blades? its great reading for bowie minded guys. i forget his actual explanation, but if you chop with something that is perfectly balanced, the only momentum and impetus (penetration) you will get is from the muscles in your arm and the weight of the weapon. when you chop with something that has the weight toward the end like a hatchet or axe, the weight being at the end of a lever seems to magnify its penetration power. you can relax near the end of the stroke because the weight will carry it through once it is moving at a certain speed.

 

[Dr Heelhook]

Dr do you have bill's book, bowies and battle blades? its great reading for bowie minded guys. i forget his actual explanation, but if you chop with something that is perfectly balanced, the only momentum and impetus (penetration) you will get is from the muscles in your arm and the weight of the weapon. when you chop with something that has the weight toward the end like a hatchet or axe, the weight being at the end of a lever seems to magnify its penetration power. you can relax near the end of the stroke because the weight will carry it through once it is moving at a certain speed.

I haven't read it but I'd love to. Sounds like he's talking about the center of percussion on the blade.

 

[JParanee]

One of the most important traits that Bill’s knives exhibit is radical distal taper

It gives Bill’s blades the lively feel that They are known for

It’s the difference between a paper weight and a big knife that feels quick and powerful in the hand

 

[Richard338]

One of the most important traits that Bill’s knives exhibit is radical distal taper

It gives Bill’s blades the lively feel that They are known for

It’s the difference between a paper weight and a big knife that feels quick and powerful in the hand

Nice image, it looks like photos are working for you again...can't wait to see what we've been missing.

 

[JParanee]

Nice image, it looks like photos are working for you again...can't wait to see what we've been missing.

Only my prior uploads can’t add anything new

photobucket sucks

 

[Richard338]

One of the most important traits that Bill’s knives exhibit is radical distal taper

It gives Bill’s blades the lively feel that They are known for

It’s the difference between a paper weight and a big knife that feels quick and powerful in the hand

I'm coming to understand the balance and handling of this blade style. It is really amazing.
I'm in the process of making a pair of Bagwell style bird's head Bowies. I think if someone just handed me one of his blades, I wouldn't understand it as well.
Based on the post by osprey888, I started with a profile at 0.33" thick. It was heavy and hard to handle. Next I ground in a strong distal taper, big difference. Finally with the bevels in place it really comes to life.
Another interesting aspect is the swedge. Looking at the photos, I feared that there was some huge finesse required, as the angle appears like it might evolve. It turns out that a flat grind on the swedge works perfectly, it just looks the way it does due to the way the spine, clip and distal taper all come into play.
Ultimately for the handling, I think it is more than just the location of the balance point. The moments of inertia depend on how the mass is distributed about the center of mass.
In this case it benefits by having more of the mass near the balance point.
Anyway, thanks to everyone for the details and inspiration, I didn't mess up so far, so I'm hoping they turn out really well.

 

[JParanee]

I'm coming to understand the balance and handling of this blade style. It is really amazing.
I'm in the process of making a pair of Bagwell style bird's head Bowies. I think if someone just handed me one of his blades, I wouldn't understand it as well.
Based on the post by osprey888, I started with a profile at 0.33" thick. It was heavy and hard to handle. Next I ground in a strong distal taper, big difference. Finally with the bevels in place it really comes to life.
Another interesting aspect is the swedge. Looking at the photos, I feared that there was some huge finesse required, as the angle appears like it might evolve. It turns out that a flat grind on the swedge works perfectly, it just looks the way it does due to the way the spine, clip and distal taper all come into play.
Ultimately for the handling, I think it is more than just the location of the balance point. The moments of inertia depend on how the mass is distributed about the center of mass.
In this case it benefits by having more of the mass near the balance point.
Anyway, thanks to everyone for the details and inspiration, I didn't mess up so far, so I'm hoping they turn out really well.

Sounds like you got it

it’s amazing more people don’t

 

[failbot]

Interestingly, the balance point is exactly at the tip of the guard. Maybe the fact is that it is easier this way to turn the enemy's blade out if he fell into a trap?

I just remembered an interesting article on tuning swords 2002 - Dynamics of Hand-Held Impact Weapons Sive De Motu George L Turner Association of Renaissance Martial Arts - https://armor.typepad.com/bastardsword/sword_dynamics.pdf

 

[Dr Heelhook]

The one I made doesn't have any distal taper other than along the clip, but it still balances on the tip of the guard and the weight is fairly evenly distributed along the length of the knife, due to all the bronze in the guard and the pommel.

That of course makes the knife a bit heavier overall, compared to if it would have had more distal taper and a lighter hilt, but it's what I was able to do with what I had at my disposal at the time.

 

[Richard338]

That turned out nice. Will you make or buy a sheath?
It would be interesting to compare the handling of one with the same balance point, but different distribution (and as you say, lighter overall).

 

[Dr Heelhook]

That turned out nice. Will you make or buy a sheath?
It would be interesting to compare the handling of one with the same balance point, but different distribution (and as you say, lighter overall).

I am working on the sheath as we speak. Yeah, my knife is pretty heavy, it’s 26.6 ounces. I guess if you’d want to knock someone out with it that would come in handy .