The blades of deer season

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Jul 31, 2002
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First firearm season was this last weekend, and there were a couple knife related things I thought would be worth sharing.

The first, was my uncle's POS Chinese freebie lockback folder. It broke when he tried using it to stab a deer to finish it off! :D On the third thrust, the pins popped loose from the handle, and the blade folded backwards up onto his hand. So he chambered another round....

When I arrived back at the farm after sitting all morning, my brother already had a small buck gutted and hanging in the shed. He was gonna make a cut in the neck region, when his blade broke in half. He was not trying to cut bone; just slicing skin and flesh, then *snap*. I asked to inspect the knife, and discovered it was my old Schrade fillet knife. I don't know the model, but this line has the green rubber handles. When I saw it, I wasn't surprised. That thing was so brittle the edge would need to be reground on my belt sander just from running it through the dish washer. I mentioned that Dad had a drop point knife from this same line, and it had similar problems.

The next day, Dad's Schrade drop point with the green rubber handles snapped in half as well! This time my brother was just slitting open the belly to gut it, and it broke. Both blades broke a bit less than halfway up the blade -not right in front of the handle or shoulder.

My big bowie came in handy. Let's see now... We used it to cut the heads off of five deer, and all took one easy swing apiece. I used it to split the chest and pelvis on two different deer, which it cut like cardboard. It suffered no damage whatsoever and I didn't even need to sharpen it. But then, I wanted to see what it could really do. Several years ago I tried to use a large stainless bowie to cut the legs off my deer, and huge scallops the size of half a dime were broken out of the edge, so I wanted to see how my newer knife would handle it. The leg bones are much harder than the ribs or spine, so I knew my knife would likely be damaged. So I cut off the two front legs (the deer was hanging free and unsupported- it may have turned out differently on a chopping block) with one swipe apiece, and the edge did take some nasty damage. It was better than I expected, but worse than I'd hoped. The worst notch was a deflected/rolled section about 5mm long and 2mm deep. I hammered out what I could, which wasn't much, and then spent 10 minutes on a very coarse alumina hand stone to reprofile and repair the edge. I didn't remove the notch completely, in an effort to conserve steel.

I brought along some of my favorite butcher knives and an old F. Dick cleaver to process the rest of the meat, and we had the whole deer cut into roasts, steaks, and stew meat within 1 1/2 hours.

There were lots of other blades involved as well over the course of the weekend, but nothing really noteworthy.

Cheers.
 
Possum...I'd hope that the first round that your uncle chambered and fired was at that knife! Preston
 
I gutted and butchered several deer in Southern Indiana back in the late 70s, using several knives, and never had one break in half. I'm surprised that one state to the left would produce deer just that much tougher.

You sure that you didn't already put big cracks in these things by swatting at racoons running through your big pile of angle iron and irrigation pipe out behind the barn, and set your uncle, brother, and dad up for failure, Possum?
 
the possum said:
On the third thrust, the pins popped loose from the handle, and the blade folded backwards up onto his hand.

Reverse spine whack.

He was not trying to cut bone; just slicing skin and flesh, then *snap*.

That is one of the worst failures I have heard.

the deer was hanging free and unsupported- it may have turned out differently on a chopping block

Much, I have done it both ways, on a block it is pretty easy to prevent damage, I have chopped up caribou legs with no damage, but take the same leg and have it up swinging around and take a cut at it and the edge can get mangled, on a block it only sees compressive forces, moving it can see lateral ones, this is one of the reasons I think a lot of weapon "tests" are misinformative because static cuts don't translate well to dynamic work.

The worst notch was a deflected/rolled section about 5mm long and 2mm deep.

What is the approximate edge angle and thickness at the back of the dent?

-Cliff
 
You sure that you didn't already put big cracks in these things by swatting at racoons running through your big pile of angle iron and irrigation pipe out behind the barn, and set your uncle, brother, and dad up for failure, Possum?

:D No, these knives never saw anything resembling abuse, at least not as far as I'm aware of. As mentioned, that fillet knife got all kinds of nasty chips in the edge just from slicing up food on a cutting board. I remember in the past I had trouble sharpening it because the edge would chip out just from the pressure of the stone. I don't remember where I saw it, but I recall seeing a third one of these knives somewhere that had a bad crack in the edge.

...but take the same leg and have it up swinging around and take a cut at it and the edge can get mangled, on a block it only sees compressive forces, moving it can see lateral ones, this is one of the reasons I think a lot of weapon "tests" are misinformative because static cuts don't translate well to dynamic work.

I agree. This is one of those things that's really hard to test for in my opinion, since there are so many uncontrolled variables in a dynamic situation, yet at the same time any controlled test that would give you repeatable & comparable results don't correlate very well to the real world. I chose the "dynamic" situation since I'm more interested in getting real world info for my own personal use. Maybe if we laid the bones on a chopping block, and then canted the blade at a specific angle to simulate the sideways torque...

What is the approximate edge angle and thickness at the back of the dent?

Well, I'll try to visualize it from memory here since I've already sharpened it out. A picture would have been great, but I didn't have the camera along and wanted to get the edge back in shape in case I needed the knife later that day. At the base of the dent, the edge was around 1-1.2 mm thick. At that point, the angle would be around 9 or 10 degrees, but it's a convex edge so it gets steeper closer to the edge. The microbevel is closer to 30 degrees.
 
the possum said:
N... that fillet knife got all kinds of nasty chips in the edge just from slicing up food on a cutting board.

Sounds like untempered martensite which can be so unstable it can crack with no outside stress at all.

This is one of those things that's really hard to test for in my opinion, since there are so many uncontrolled variables in a dynamic situation ...

You need a large sample to generate a stable average. From any one run to the next the differences could be quite large, but comparing the average damage from say a dozen dynamic cuts, or median would be better still, would be much more representative.

It is similar to wood chopping. You can't compare performance of one blade to another just from chopping up a log. Wood changes density even in the same piece, knots come and go, grain twists, plus you might be better on one day than the next, or stronger.

However if you record the damage over a period of time, and then do the same with another blade, and look at either the total or average or some measure which smooths the variation, then it is possible to make a meaningful comparison.

The longer the time period the better, but it is a root n relationship which means to get 10 times better you need 100 times the trial length.

At the base of the dent, the edge was around 1-1.2 mm thick. At that point, the angle would be around 9 or 10 degrees, but it's a convex edge so it gets steeper closer to the edge. The microbevel is closer to 30 degrees.

That thickness should be able to take it, but I have not seen any steel which would with that primary edge grind, about 15 degrees is about where I would put the higher quality steels. Going below this becomes hard even on static cuts. Had you done this with no damage I would be severely impressed with either you or the knife.

-Cliff
 
So what did you use the most to cut the deer up into roast? My favorite is a 5 boning knife. Sure wish I'd be able to find one with good steel for a great price.
 
Damn you need some new knives. I have used the same knife since I was 10 to gut deer and butcher them. Never broke, never failed. I cant believe they would break like that. I have finished off deer in archery season with knives and never had them break. The things you did and talked about I do not consider abuse, just part of using a knife as a hunter. Now cutting off the legs with your knife could be viewed as abuse but I have had to use one of my large bowies in a pinch, and had minor damage. Glad to see some people are gettin some deer this season, hunt safe man.
 
That thickness should be able to take it, but I have not seen any steel which would with that primary edge grind, about 15 degrees is about where I would put the higher quality steels. Going below this becomes hard even on static cuts. Had you done this with no damage I would be severely impressed with either you or the knife.

Actually, I just got out a ruler and took a good look at just how big a millimeter is. I think I may have overestimated the thickness. It may have been more like .8 to 1 mm. Also, this was the worst spot from one leg. I cut the other leg with a different section of edge, and in that place the worst damage was a series of chips/ripples that were only about .5-.7mm deep. But of course, the bigger notch shows that I can't pull off such a feat consistently with minimal damage.

I feel the testing also shows something that you mentioned with wood. Not all bone is the same, and we're not talking subtle differences either. Some bones can be cut all day easily with no damage at all, while harder bones will ruin the edge with just one or two cuts.

Oh, I also need to amend a statement in my first post. After thinking about it a while, I now remember that my brother used the bowie to decapitate one deer, and he needed to take 3 swings. He was holding on to the knife with both hands, which probably made things awkward. Anyway...

Thanks for the thoughts, barrabas. I have better knives, but can't afford the ones I really want.

db-
I ended up using my Blackjack 1-7 for much of the cutting, as someone else borrowed my favorite butcher knife. I also used a Henkels kitchen knife with a slender blade of 7" or so, and for cutting up the big roasts, I had an F. Dick butcher knife with a blade 10 or 12 inches long. (never measured them.) It allows you to make one clean cut through a roast 9 inches thick. I didn't use it this year, but normally I also have a similar sized knife made by Wilson of Sheffield from Shear Steel. The edge is thin as paper, so I try to be careful with it.
 
the possum said:
I think I may have overestimated the thickness. It may have been more like .8 to 1 mm.

I think with about half a mm thickness, with a decent hardness you can prevent roll on bone because it takes insane levels of impact to ripple it and I have never came close to doing it unassisted, even with batoning it takes retarded impacts to bend 0.025" of quality steel.

Not all bone is the same ...

I assume animals have similar bone density ranges to people which can vary a lot depending on weight, activity level and specific diseases, this is why it is critical to do it over and over and over and over before you reach any kinf of conclusion.

I have better knives, but can't afford the ones I really want.

Yeah, I'd like to have a 18" parang in 3/16" damascus from Cashen, 2" wide with a one inch forged fuller running down the middle, with a dual grip presentation grade ironwood grip. Then finish it off with a sheath from Clements, rigged for back cross draw and side leg low ride with intricate tooling of Jack Burton on the front and Ash across the back, coupled with a few choice quotes from the respective movies. Aside from the functional benefits, the aestethics would be insanely appealing, and who would not want to spend a few hours with that combination. When I get a spare few grand (for each) I'll get it made up.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
I think with about half a mm thickness, with a decent hardness you can prevent roll on bone because it takes insane levels of impact to ripple it and I have never came close to doing it unassisted, even with batoning it takes retarded impacts to bend 0.025" of quality steel.
-Cliff

Well, tell ya what. I may be getting myself in trouble trying to estimate these dimensions from memory. Tonight when I get home, I'll try to take an actual approximate measurement with calipers. I figure I'm generating quite a bit of impact force since I was swinging this 18" blade with all my strength. But I also have to keep in mind that this piece of steel was very inconsistent, so maybe I just found one of the bad spots. ??

That parang you're talking about sounds sweet. Would love to see pics if you ever do get it made.
 
Turns out I did overestimate the steel thickness at the edge. Last night I got a better measurement by pressing the edge into wax to the damaged depth, and the thickness at the bottom of the notch would have been more like .7-.8 mm. I also need to amend another thing from my first post. On the second Old Timer knife, my brother said "It broke too," and I took him to mean it broke in half like the other one. But I saw it this morning while I was at the farm, and the blade was not broken completely in half. It was missing some giant scallops of steel though -halfway up through the primary grind! So, for all practical purposes, it still failed miserably, and is far beyond repair.
 
Yeah, that thickness is at about the point where you need pretty perfect steel even with a much more obtuse primary edge angle than you were running. I would think you would need an extreme level of skill on a very static cut to not damage the edge with that geometry, I would not want to bet on being able to do it personally.

Interesting report on the other knife, I have seen blades so brittle they came apart under the stone and the edge would just crack away in use even on soft materials like cardboard and these were not thin bladed either but "tacticals" in new uber steels, if the heat treatment is really off nothing else matters.

-Cliff
 
I figure my Cold Steel Master Hunter will be seeing blood again sometime in the next couple weeks. Deer season is set to start here soon.
 
I used a knife that I have had for years but had never really put to the test until this deer season. First, I used it to cut a bunch of brush and thorn bushes so I could get my truck in to get the deer out. Then, without sharpening, I proceded to gut the deer. Still sharp. It cut the breast bone, no problem. I used a rubber mallet to baton it through the pelvic bone. Edge looks fine. I freshened it up with a few swipes on the crock sticks and cut up the deer the next day, trimmed the meat the day after that. The knife did pretty well. My dad bought it for me at Bass Pro Shops about 20 years ago. One side of the 5.5 inch fixed clip point blade has the Bass Pro Shops logo on the bolster. The other side says "Japan Stainless Steel". The green rubber handle says "Gamestalker". I have no idea what the steel is or who made the knife for Bass Pro. AUS-6, maybe. I'll have to use it more often.
 
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