The DaQo'tah 04 Targhorn

D

DaQo'tah Forge

Banned
Joined
Aug 26, 2002
Messages
1,333
I have changed from 52100 steel to John Deer Load shafts of a clean 5160 (saved money)

I have kept the grind of Ed Fowler, but have started to make the profile more pointed.

I no longer etch all blades because none of my co-workers like that type of finish.

I switched from 3/4 square brass for the guards , to 1/2 X 3/4. (saves time and money and looks better with the longer micarta block handle.

I made a few knives with wood handles, then switched to the same type of Sheep horn that Fowler uses, however I soon found that getting into some real money, so I switched to a "rough sanded" solid block of black Micarts , and the guys LOVE the way it feels in the hand , even when wet and covered with deer blood.

The knife sheath has stayed the same as the design I learned from Ed, the sheath really makes the knife I carry at work a handy tool. Need it/grab it....dont need it/ stick it back...
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I have changed the way I heat-treat my blades now too. I was unable to support the use of 3 different quenchings from my own testing of my blades , so I have switched to the use of one or more quenching onle deppending on how they go. If I do the first quench correctly (has never happened yet) then I believe that should be enough.

Another thing I have changed from last year is that I no longer use my O/A torch to heat-treat my blades with. I found that my handleing of the torch was never as good as it needed to be, so I have switched to useing my new gas forge to heat-treat with. The Forge is way better for me as it heats the blade with a deeper heat, and is more even, and gives me more control...and yes, it saves me lots of money too.

also, based on a Welding Enspecting Video I saw 6 months ago , I have stopped allowing my blades to cool down in the oil after the quench. Now from what I have learned from the way welders are handleing the built-up stress in steel, I run my (still very hot) blade into the pre-heated kitchen oven to temper right away.

I have only one way I test my blades, (I just think that all the cutting tests are subject to too many unknowns to be able to say you tested one blade the same way as another)and that is with the use of the same file. I have one good file that I run over all my blades with, the file does nothing else for me except test the blade heat-treatmtnts and I have been able to prove to myself that Im on the right track.http://eastof29.tripod.com/daqotahforge2/id40.html
 
Nice-looking blade!

Are you edge-quenching? And if you are, does the spine heat draw the temper out of the edge when you do a short quench?
 
Nice-looking blade!
Click to expand...
I agree and that handle looks real comfortable.
DaQo'tah it looks like your own style is evolving and looking good.
I think that's a good question Michael asks.
Regards,
Greg
 
I have given this a ton of thinking....


When Ed Fowler uses the O/A torch in his movie , (my only guide to making a knife by the way), he only heats the cutting edges. This I have tried to do as best I could copy. However the problems I was haveing came in the "When to pull the trigger?", or when to stop heating and quench.

I found after I did my quenchings with the O/A torch when I did the etch that my heating was uneven . The hard parts of the blade would be all over the place. the soft parts of the blade would dip too low. The problem is that by the time you etch to see the problem you have already ground down the blade to a fine cutting edge. it's just too late to fix.

So as a test, I used my new Wisper Low Boy 3 burner forge in place of the O/A torch. It seemed to work. I questioned what I had done with Ed and he said that more likely was the chance that I got the blade hard more up the sides than I had before with the torch.

I then did two more blades as a head-to-head testing of this system, one with the torch and one done with the forge.
each was quenched 3 different times. (I have now given up this 3-quench part)

My only way to run a hardness test is with a new file I have set aside for that. The file showed that , yes, Ed Fowler was correct, the hardened section of the blade went up much higher on the Forge/quenched blade than on the torch/quench blade.
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I would NEVER advice ANYONE to copy my system due to the fact that I am dipping a very large amount of red hot steel into hot oil!!!!!!...there is a fire,,a very exciteing fire with each quenching.
As the blade is dipped into the oil the fire reaches up to my welding gloves.

I still edge quench, so I rock my blade in the oil as shown in the Ed Fowler video. However I saw that Ed quenched the lower 1/3 of his blade, but I have deepened my blade in the oil by lowering the little table I have setting in the quench tank. I quench about 2/3 to 3/4 of the blade in the oil.

This deeper setting should help me get rid of any effect the red hot spine might have at slowing the quenching of the cutting areas.
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The results:
The hard area of the blade is more even, but goes up higher on the side of the blade.

The Racasso area is hard on the lower section so this means that I have to file for the guard before i heat-treat.

The etch as shown the hard areas are more even now, and they seem to show in the etch that I have a very good quench.

File-tested blades show themselves to be even better than my O/A torched blades, however this might only reflect my poor use of the torch (thats what caused me to switch to the forge quench in the first place)

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I have always been interested in different ways to Heat-treat my blades to make them both better, and easyer to do. All of my Blade Forum brothers have always told me that I have to learn this stuff on my own with testing my own work. well I have done some testing and this is what I have learned...
 
Looking good DaQo'tah, real user look to the blade shape, and while micarta may not have the beuty that horn does, you can't hurt it short of a hammer!

next thing you know you'll be pounding out billits of powder damascus!

Keep it up, your doing great!
 
Glad to see you're making progress and developing your own procedure. Don't stop now !
 
I really like the knife also. Was wondering how you compare the John Deere shafts to the 52100 in terms of performance and sharpening.
Thanks!
 
Ah yes, 52100 vs. 5160 the eternal debate.
As I only made about 10 different knives with 52100, my point of view is limited.

But this is what I found to be true after using that steel:

I ordered my steel from Rex Walter who is the same guy that Ed Fowler gets his 52100 steel from, so I knew I was working on the very same steel as the experts. This was important to me because I wanted to see for myself what people had been talking about. I ordered my steel at first already forged down to ¼ inch so there was not much need for me to forge it to shape. However I did get some 52100 from Rex that was ½ inch thick so I did a bit more work with that.

First I had been told that 52100 steel moves harder under hammer blows compared to 5160, and this might be true, however I didn't really notice it much. I ordered a 1 inch thick section of 52100 from a Blade Forum bro and it came way thicker than I thought and it was more work to get into the correct shape, but it moved as well as the 5160 as far as I could tell. I mean, I get the stuff red hot and hit it as hard as a human can. The stuff shows movement after each blow, but it's not like it squirts.

The blades I made with the 52100 were good and Im proud of them, but I did spend a bit more time on each one as they were placed onto sheep horn handles. The only problem I have ever had with the 52100 steel comes when sharpening them when they are very dull. I like to use my Norton Fine India Stone to work up a burr, but the 52100 steel seemed to take longer, and the burr was smaller (thinner?), than the burr I would normally get with the 5160.

I gave the 52100 blades the same triple heat treatments shown in Ed Fowler's video, and as I no longer do this type of heat treatment on my blades it is hard to compare them to the 5160 blades I make now.

Now as for the John Deere Shafts I use now:
Good gosh they are a ton of work! Some of the shafts I get are over 1 and ¼ inch thick. I had to get a Whisper Lowboy 3 burner forge to use on the shafts, as my coal forge was just not up to the task.

I smack the shafts with a 10 # sledgehammer that has the handle cut-down on. I get about 5 of 6 real powerful hits before I wear out and have to re-heat again.

5160 steel is called a good "learning steel" and that's what I am busy doing with it, learning.

As far as comparing the cutting action of the 5160 to the 52100 blades, I would have to say that they seem to be close. It must come down to a question of the grind, the edge, and the thing being cut.

In conclusion:
I have noted how the people that use only 52100 steel in their blades really stand behind that steel. To them it is the best over-all steel for a High performance blade.

I on the other hand like 5160 Load Shafts mostly based on the fact that load shafts are free, they are clean (no air holes or flaws in the steel) and they give me a great chance to forge steel in the Old School way I seek to learn and carry on.

But I don't think 5160 steel can sing and dance.
 
The important choice between 5160 and 52100 would be it's use . The tougher 5160 for impact use , chopping etc and the 52100 for better edge retention.
 
Nice one! I really like the choice of Micarta. Maybe not as ideal as sheep horn but it's still one of my favorite - maybe even my all-time favorite - handle materials. Hard to beat Micarta; it can even look good on the high end collector knives. (That's my dream - some people go for the ultimate heat treat; I want to make the perfect Micarta handle. :D )
 
Dave.....I also like Micarta.

I made all my 52100 knives with sheep horn that I got off the internet from a lady in the middle of Texas. Each skull set was $60 so at that rate I could not mess up.

But after a while I had to stop with the sheep horn. It was just too much money. Im happy I got to try to make a handle just like Ed Fowler makes in the Bearing to blade video.

BUT ..(yes the big butt part of my post)...here is the deal with the Micarta handles I make now.
At first I sanded and sanded them, then used the buffer and pink no-scratch and got them really glass-like and very cool looking.

I sold a few like that just before deer hunting this year. I got a call from a guy who got one of my knives and he asked if I would like to come over and try that knife out on a buck?

I jumped at the chance, but when I was into the mess and guts of the deer I noticed that the Micarta handle was hard to hang on to. My hands were slimy from the deer guts and blood, and the high buffed handle was slippery, way more dangerious than I had ever dreamed!

I talked to the guy who now owned the knife, and I told him I neded to try something and it it didnt work I would fix the knife when we were done.
I got a few sheets of sandpaper and roughed-up the Micarta. I gave the whole handle a good sanding, then went over it with a bit finer sandpaper and left it like that.

Now even wet and covered with blood the handle just seemed to get better and better to hand on to. Infact I liked the feel with it covered in blood over the feel of it clean and dry...

Thats why I now have switched to a sanded but not buffed finish on the Micarta.

Yes, it looks BUTT UGLY!....but Im not that type of knife maker who worries about such things and my knives are not ment to stop trafic with their nice looks.

I just want to be known for: a blade that cuts and a handle that works,,,,no matter what.
 
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