The FAA and magnetically inert blades.

Joined
Feb 23, 2001
Messages
6
I have read much about the Federal Aviation Administration's guidelines or regulations on carrying knives on-board commercial airliners. I've read that knives under four inches are permissible; serrated edges are/are not permissible; the law is specific on what may or may not be carried; airport security personnel have the discretion on what may or may not be carried. I've also read that the FAA does not allow magnetically inert blades to be brought on-board.

The problem I have with all of the above is that I have yet to find the actual regulations or published guidelines from the FAA on what constitutes a "dangerous" or "deadly weapon." I am looking for citations to the law, and not second-hand advice. Does anyone have this information?

Thanks,

Hugo
 
A follow-up to my earlier post:

I conducted some research on the subject on two pay legal databases and found nothing within the Code of Federal Regulations, Federal Register, or U.S. Code. I did find an article by Stephen Halbrook on firearms and air travel referencing the guidelines and also two federal cases referencing the guidelines. I then contacted the FAA directly to obtain the guidelines. Unsurprisingly, I was told that the document is not for public release. I was also told that the language in the current guidelines is similar to what is found in the original (1973) guidelines: knives that would be legal to carry in the departure and arrival jurisdictions are legal to bring on board. There is nothing in the guidelines on serrated blades, nor are magnetically inert blades mentioned.

Notwithstanding the help from the FAA official, I've made a Freedom of Information Act request for the guidelines. Also, as a result of my research, I've decided to write an article on the law regarding edged weapons and airline travel. I must say that I was surprised not to get a post on my query. . . . .

Regards,

Hugo
 
Hugo,
I'm surprised you haven't had a reply, too. Perhaps those who could best comment are on other forums or engaged in "real life." I'm not sure how often I'll be hanging out here, plus I'm a newbie, but at least I can make a few comments of my own. Hope this can get things going, as your second post really sounds interesting.
A couple of months ago, I called the FAA at Port Columbus to get more accurate info on what our self-defense students (about 95% female college students) might run into when boarding an airliner. (There has been at least one who had her OC spray confiscated at the gate, and I had read in Women and Guns magazine that small OC canisters in checked luggage were now allowed.) After I talked to someone at the main security number who seemed to think my educational efforts were annoying, I called the FAA office and at least felt I was treated like a citizen. Basically, he told me about airlines setting their own more restrictive policies and that I would have to check with them. (I called one airline, and it took forever to try to work with the phone rep on exactly what was allowed. No, I don't remember much of it.) Of course, I didn't think to ask about FAA rule numbers, etc., like I would if I were checking on Ohio Revised Code stuff.
Your experience with the FAA is disturbing. "Not for public release," huh? "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" takes on a whole new dimension here, doesn't it! When they don't let you examine the guidelines (law?) for yourself EVEN WHEN YOU ASK!!
Practically, of course, the airlines seem to all have stricter rules, and I guess they can enforce them. Fortunately, I've only flown on an airliner in the military. (My first overseas flight was in a 747 on which I took an M16A1, a 1911A1, and a bayonet first class! So did a bunch of my Army MP buddies, so it was all Uncle Sam approved, and the expenses were paid. It would have been fun had I not had a cold and we had not been flying off to the unknown. Desert Shield/Storm turned out to be a cakewalk for us, but we couldn't have foretold that.)
I applaud you applying for the Freedom of Information Act request, but with the airlines' own rules creating the bottom line, even finding that there may be no FAA guidelines on blades might not accomplish anything other than fulfilling curiosity.
As for the serration thing, Massad Ayoob has written (within the past six months in a gun rag) that there was some sort of security meeting in which a numbskull persuaded those attending that serrations can cut through the skin of an aircraft! Thus those restrictions.
As for magnetically inert blades, do you mean titanium or glass filled plastic (like CIA letter opener)? My Shomer-Tec catalog also lists a dendritic cobalt folder, a G-10 laminate designed by Emerson, as well as a Busse Stealth Hawk made of FP-45 laminate.
Or how about some good old flint? Hmmm. Some bone tools and leather palm protection, plus a big chunk of flint...no one would object to that, would they? You could get on with raw materials, and get off the plane with a nice sharp historical reproduction!

Would flint be considered "serrated?"

Karl




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"Celebrate the diversity of inclusive, self-esteem nurturing, multicultural weapons arts." Karl Spaulding, The Safety Guy
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Safety Guy:
Hugo,
I'm surprised you haven't had a reply, too. Perhaps those who could best comment are on other forums or engaged in "real life." I'm not sure how often I'll be hanging out here, plus I'm a newbie, but at least I can make a few comments of my own. Hope this can get things going, as your second post really sounds interesting.</font>


Yes, your comments help. At this point in my research, I've about exhausted my research (statutes, regulations, "guidelines," and case law). I'm nearly finished with the article that I'll be submitting to Tactical Knives, I need only to call the airlines.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Basically, he told me about airlines setting their own more restrictive policies and that I would have to check with them. </font>

I've heard this before. Problem for me is that the airlines are acting as agents of the federal government, and there should be a uniform standard for what constitutes a deadly or dangerous weapon. There isn't.


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Your experience with the FAA is disturbing. "Not for public release," huh? "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" takes on a whole new dimension here, doesn't it! When they don't let you examine the guidelines (law?) for yourself EVEN WHEN YOU ASK!!</font>

This was a point of Halbrook's article. There are some interesting federal cases, including one in which a person was prosecuted and convicted for carrying a 3 1/2 inch folder on-board a commercial plane. The case got to the Supreme Court before the government acknowledged that it had exceeded the FAA guidelines in arresting the person, and the government further conceded that the knife was legal in the jurisdictions of the person's origination and destination.

Stay tuned. If my article is accepted for publication, I'll post here.

Hugo
 
Hugo,

Thanks for your reply. Just FYI, I happened across a thread in Knife Community; Community Center; Police Shootings and I felt compelled to post there. You may wish to view it, as I gave Jim March a heads up on this thread. He runs a California CCW rights site, and may be interested.

Then again, maybe not! I hope they don't view this newbie as too intrusive. I just prefer energy go into defending our right of self-defense and not bickering amongst each other.

I'll check back within my usual time: a day or two.

Yers,
Karl


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"Celebrate the diversity of inclusive, self-esteem nurturing, multicultural weapons arts." Karl Spaulding, The Safety Guy
 
Interesting topic.

I have a Boker Orion, which has a titanium blade and liner, and carbon fibre handles. It's a rather small bade, and looks pretty (it has a shiny adonization effect that makes it sparkly), more like jewlery than anything, certainly doesn't look that dangerous.

I actually bought it when I was going out to dance clubs with a girlfriend (now ex) and wanted something I could walk past a metal detector with. It does avoid most metal detectors, ocassionally I get looked at with it, I think the clip may be steel, but 90% of the time you can walk right through.

I've been carrying it when I go on an air trip, instead of my SAK, or any of the other knives I may carry, as I figure, if it isn't seen I won't have to worry about it. Again, I just walk through the detector with it in my pocket.

If the FAA does have specific guidelines on non-magnetic knives, I may go back to just carrying my SAK and putting it in the tray. It seems to me that the FAA tends to get very seriously upset about small things (i.e. serrations) and I wouldn't want to pull out my Orion to open my peanut pack after takeoff, have a steward observe me, and be met at the gate by federal authorities.

I'm interested to see any research that anyone comes up with. I have been thinking my 2" blade Boker Orion is relatively harmless, but my old Spyderco dyad was harmless too, and got confiscated because it was serrated.

Yours,
Todd (edgedance)

 
49 USC 46505 is written in rather broad terms.

(b) General Criminal Penalty. - An individual shall be fined under title 18, imprisoned for not more than 10 years, or both, if the individual -
(1) when on, or attempting to get on, an aircraft in, or intended for operation in, air transportation or intrastate air transportation, has on or about the individual or the property of the individual a CONCEALED DANGEROUS WEAPON that is or would be accessible to the individual in flight;
(2) has placed, attempted to place, or attempted to have placed a loaded firearm on that aircraft in property not accessible to passengers in flight; or
(3) has on or about the individual, or has placed, attempted to place, or attempted to have placed on that aircraft, an explosive or incendiary device.

49 USC 44902 is more vague and gives more authority for airlines and/or airport security to set their own arbitrary rules, hence the current situation that obtains wherein a 3.25"-3.5" blade length limit would seem to be the accepted rule along with the no serrations rule. Searching through Title 14 and Title 49 one won't find specific references to blade length limits or declarations that serrations are a weapon.

(a) Mandatory Refusal. - The Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration shall prescribe regulations requiring an air carrier, intrastate air carrier, or foreign air carrier to refuse to transport -
(1) a passenger who does not consent to a search under section 44901(a) of this title establishing whether the passenger is carrying unlawfully a dangerous weapon, explosive, or other destructive substance; or
(2) property of a passenger who does not consent to a search of the property establishing whether the property unlawfully contains a dangerous weapon, explosive, or other destructive substance.
(b) Permissive Refusal. - Subject to regulations of the Administrator, an air carrier, intrastate air carrier, or foreign air carrier MAY REFUSE TO TRANSPORT A PASSENGER OR PROPERTY THE CARRIER DECIDES IS, OR MIGHT BE, INIMICAL TO SAFETY.

FAA does outline a Passenger's Rights that permits pocket knives with a blade length under 4 inches. However, this is not in agreement with actual application of these rules. The rules will vary depending upon where one goes and which airport one flies outta. When I flew from Seattle to L.A. in November, Seatac security only looked at my cell phone and pager. LAX security also checked the blade length of my Benchmade folder (2.9") and ensured the Mini Maglite I carry actually illuminated.

Methinks the more press coverage such an issue receives then the greater likelihood that some b*ttplug in Congress will get an amendment to a bill absolutely prohibiting blades of any sort on commercial flights.

Only thing I've ever found in USC about blade length is in 18 USC 930, and this is in reference to "dangerous weapons" in a federal facility including the Post Office.

(2) The term "dangerous weapon" means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 2 1/2 inches in length.

As to speculation over non-magnetic knives, there is no specific exception for them so there's no reason to assume they are anything OTHER than a weapon. If anyone ever gets the urge to pack their Mad Dog Mirage X on a commercial airline flight simply because he or she can, if one is found out, losing the knife will be the least of one's worries.

Ken Grubb
Lacey, WA
If this had been actual legal advice, you would have been instructed where to send payment. Well, that and my parents are married, so I was denied entrance to law school.
 
quote:
---------------------------------------------Originally posted by James Y:
Yes, I agree about plainedged knives being preferable for air travel. I never carry anything serrated on an airline...
A few years ago Steven Dick in a TK article mentioned that he was not allowed to carry on a plainedge Calypso Jr. Micarta because it had a locking blade, even though technically it fell well within the legal limits. Jim

---------------------------------------------

You can study the FAA regulations, but when it comes to knives, the security forces have total discretion to make them more conservative. I can assure you they will tell you this if you recite or present paper copies of FAA regulations to them. They did this to me. I chose to adapt:
~~~~~~~~~~
I've had 3" blades with black coating rejected, 3" partly serrated rejected... never a locker on that trait alone, but I don't doubt it one bit.

Each concourse has security hired by dominant carrier on that concourse. They are free to make the FAA rules more restrictive without notice, without having a written set of rules to reference... the $6/hour space-patrol types do as they see fit, on inspiration. Ahhh...the power.

I always stick my airport-pocket-knife in my carry-on and send it through xray...often inside a glasses case just to confuse the blade image with eye glasses, or in a pocket of my bag filled with coins. Very rarely do they open the bag to fetch "that pocket knife" that showed up on xray. I don't think they know what it is... metal lined liner locks are particularly hard to pick out on xray...looks like a blob, hard to see blade outline. Part-way down the concourse, I stop and retrieve pocket knife. Works for me very routinely.

 
I would add that I personally think it is a very poorly conceived idea to attempt to carry a magnetically inert knife onto a plane. If the blade is discovered, you have demonstrated some kind of intent to deceive, and the guards might just call the local cops over, those who man the airport, and they'll arrive in less than 30 seconds (I've seen it happen), and they work with you a bit (read, instant citation at a minimum).

Again, I chose to adapt in civil looking ways, i.e. 3" or less locker, unserrated, no black coatings. Non-threatening pocket knife.
 
Thanks for the post, Ken, especially the info on blade length restrictions on certain Federal properties. It's real heartening to know that I've unwittingly broken the law numerous times when I've gone for stamps or to send a package. And I don't even have a terrorist license!

Next time the government wants me to pack an M16, a pistol and a bayonet to a foreign country to "fight for freedom," I'll be sure to remind them that I can't go because I simply can't be trusted with anything longer than two-and-a-half inches!

However, Ted Kennedy's and Gov. Bob Taft's
mad.gif
bodyguards seem to be trusted no matter what they do. Send THEM!

Rantingly,
Karl
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