The identity principle, or someone is wrong.

A

aguijonmagico

Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
287
Szabo vs Yojimbo 2.

They CANNOT be both right at the same time.

One is long, The other short
One with great belly, The other no belly
One big handle, The other small handle
One favours reverse Grip, The other filipino Grip, or modified sabre.

Is There science, or only marketing and hype?

Just joking, I don't care, whatever.
But don't Tell me There isn't a bit of a contradiction here.

Orthagraphy due to IPad with spanish autocorrect typing in english.
 
More than one way to skin a cat. Think of all the tools in the world, and how five different tools can do the same job. Seems that expecting one one knife to be the one and only self-defense knife is sillier. What is really silly is that long short this grip that grip, it still is no gun, and a knife is a tool.
 
Then is all marketing and hype, no self defense science.
Because if we take The posture of The first answer, everything is relative to tastes.
And if we take The posture of The second answer, then several tools can do The same Job. So again, picking your preferred tool is subjective.

It's easy, because if everything is relative, obviously There is no principle of identity. And no logic. Because The identity principle is The foundation of logic.

The (logical) conclusión is, again, that It is imposible to attain a logical conclusion.

If belly and no belly, short and long, handle or not are The same, The question of course is a no question.
 
I don't know man, this is a knife forum, not a philosophy forum. I suppose you could make that argument about anything and everything in the world.
 
Look at the difference between samurai swords and European swords. One side has long sweeping bellies and the other has sharp lines and corners.

Neither one more right than the other, but each have different styles.
 
aguijonmagico said:
If belly and no belly, short and long, handle or not are The same, The question of course is a no question.
Click to expand...

Logic has nothing to do with it. As nccole just said, "More than one way to skin a cat." I have a Szabo in front of me and a P'kal nearby. Knives, even for the same general purpose are made differently depending on the style of self-defense, the agility of the practitioner, the size of his hand, the convenience of carrying a particular size knife.

So belly and no belly, short and long, handle or not are not the same. Self defense is a general term, and different knives answer to different specific self defense situations. I don't wear the same clothes every day; I carry the most appropriate knife for the day.
 
As an engineer once said, the difference between theory and practice is, in theory it works, in practice it doesn't.
 
Don't agree on the difference between european and katana.
Sabre and Katana are very near. It's a chopping first then stabbing from a horse. Cavalry sword.
There are reasons in common, and that's my point, by the way. When you have reasons for action, you find designs in common across the ages and geography.
I.E. the piramids, or the knife, or the bow. How many times the knife and the bow where invented?
How many times the sabre?
the spear?

You invent them because you need them for something, something quite specific.
In this example, of szabo vs yojimbo 2, THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN. Because both are sold as self defense, but it's like saying I selling you a spear for self defense because of this an that reason, and then saying "and I also have this" and is, I don't know, a stick? what it's the opposite of a spear? whatever.
It's also funny because yojimbo 2 is THE OPPOSITE to the Szabo, keeping both as knives, of course.

REASONS FOR ACTIONS.
 
The Y2 is the distillate of M. Janich's thought and practice in his quest for a folder that would be ideal or close to it for his concept of self defense. The Szabo is probably a reflection of Szabo's quest for the same thing, for his concept of self-defense. If you are acquainted with Janich's method(s) then the Y2 makes perfect sense. I am, and it does to me. I'm not acquainted with Szabo, but of course that's just me. You have postulated a valid question but it can only be answered by referring to the purpose intended by each designer, both of whom happen to be also knowledgeable about this aspect of self-defense, each with his own philosophy, and each with his own knife.

Now I need a drink.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
As an engineer once said, the difference between theory and practice is, in theory it works, in practice it doesn't.
Click to expand...

Exactly :)

aguijonmagico said:
You invent them because you need them for something, something quite specific.
In this example, of szabo vs yojimbo 2, THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN. Because both are sold as self defense
Click to expand...

If you told 100 people to design a knife specifically for self defense, you would get 100 different designs. There's no single perfect design for self defense, because people defend themselves in different ways.

Esav Benyamin said:
Logic has nothing to do with it. As nccole just said, "More than one way to skin a cat."
Click to expand...

Exactly again :) logic is great, but can't be applied without taking all the variables into account. Unfortunately, you can almost never account for all the variables in real life :rolleyes:
 
irminsul said:
the y2 is the distillate of m. Janich's thought and practice in his quest for a folder that would be ideal or close to it for his concept of self defense. The szabo is probably a reflection of szabo's quest for the same thing, for his concept of self-defense. If you are acquainted with janich's method(s) then the y2 makes perfect sense. I am, and it does to me. I'm not acquainted with szabo, but of course that's just me. You have postulated a valid question but it can only be answered by referring to the purpose intended by each designer, both of whom happen to be also knowledgeable about this aspect of self-defense, each with his own philosophy, and each with his own knife.

Now i need a drink.
Click to expand...


exactly!!
 
Bob Terzuola wrote a book about the tactical knife. An useless exercise then?

Applegate designed a knife to kill...an act of inutility, even of lunacy?

A thread here of "lessons we can learn from ancient times" talking about the triangular shape, etc.

The point as superior to the edge, western swords as superior to east ones, stabbing superior to slicing, those are all connected ideas to each other and to my question.


Don't take this as a firm posture of mine, or anything. I'm just saying that MAYBE there are underlying principles to knife design, and MAYBE we may want to explore and understand them.
Another example, maybe more clear. If a new user comes and asks for a hunting knfe, no one would say a black coated combo edge tanto. Agreed?
Well, if you agree on that, then oooops, a whole new horizon opens up. If a drop point four inches easy to sharpen big belly is a hunter standard, then...

WHAT IS THE STANDARD FOR SELF DEFENSE?

and then, you must agree that, given their opposite characteristics, Szabo and Yojimbo 2 can't be at the same time and under the same aspect both the standard for a self defense knife.
There you go, chew on that! High five myself!
nah, just kidding
 
aguijonmagico said:
There you go, chew on that! High five myself!
nah, just kidding
Click to expand...

I got a kick out of this :D At the same time, the Spyderco Civilian is designed for self defense, and is not like either the Szabo or Yojimbo 2. The only problem is...the standard for self defense doesn't exist! I wouldn't choose any of these designs for self defense. Different martial arts focus on different movements, lending their properties to different knife designs.
 
A great swordsman was asked his secret. He said, I pull my sword and cut down the enemy.
 
Words don't mean what one person says they mean, but what many people understand. To say that self-defense refers to some one specific behavior, that calls for some one corresponding knife design, is what is wrong with your thesis.

Self-defense can be successfully achieved with a variety of weapons, and focusing on any one specific design is dangerously and unnecessarily limiting. For example. sword and main gauche, distance and close in weapons, wielded simultaneously.

Self-defense is primarily a mindset, next a pattern of behaviors, only last of all the weapons. Weapons, plural. Different weapons, different designs, for different circumstances, training, capabilities.
 
I agree, I like where you are going.
A hunter well, hunts.
Self defense can mean a lot of things...just thinking about Mr. Janich "responsible self defense" vs. pierce a vital organ mindset, for example.

Then, the answer could be that these very different knives DO HAVE reasons and logic behind them. But what changes is the point of departure, the axioms. So, what is debatable are those founding thoughts. The knives are only practical instrumentations of those thoughts.

Would you agree that the PHILOSOPHIES sustaining those knives are opposite? If so, one by logic must be wrong.
If don't, is simply because they are not opposite, but only merely different.
And the confusion comes, to me, if there is a confusion, from the knives themselves, wich seem opposite ends of the spectrum.

This is maybe prac tact, but I posted here because I'm talking about the spyderco knives. I would submit that zt has an unified philosophy behind his knives. Also, kershaw, benchmade, hk, Fox, Extrema Ratio, Busse, Esee, Hinderer.
And I would also wage that spyderco has CONTRADICTORY PHILOSOPHIES, wich szabo vs yojimbo 2 vs Civilian (I take the civilian example, thanks, you are spot on) I think prove.

That was my interest to explore. I don't want to bore you, americans have been called the romans of our time, you are practical people, you send rockets to the moon. We argentinians would debate if doing so is ethically right, while at the same time stealing the funds to do it.

I know it's wrong what I said about american, philosophy and theory are really big in America, you are a beacon of intellect for the rest of the world, we follow you.

Sadly, what I said about argentinians is true.

So I know there's bound to be in these great forums others not only like me, but way better, like the nice young fellas who posted above.
Peace out.
 
You have to ask what the knife is wrong FOR in order for your question to make sense. An axe would be the wrong tool to dig a hole, and a shovel would be the wrong tool for chopping a tree. The two knives you mention are designed for two different purposes.
 
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