The Other REXs

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Oct 22, 2012
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Much has been made on how REX-121 is (was?) an extreme steel, with wear resistance rivaling or even surpassing that of 10v. Now that much has settled, it was revealed that the alloy was generally outperformed as a blade steel by 10v, and 15v was even more wear resistant at similar toughness.

What I am wondering now is how about the other REX steels? What ever happened to them and why didn't we see the same hype for them in the knife world? REX M42, REX 20, REX T15, and REX 76 all have some very loaded compositions, and I am wondering how they stack up in performance to other high-end offerings like S90V, M4, and M390? I am curious as to whether or not these alloys were just too optimized for industrial use, or if they actually have the special blend of properties that make for great knives.

Any opinions/experience?
 
If I were to take a wild guess, which this will be. I'd say its because most of those are hard to grind and shape. I am no expert with any of these steels, or any steel. But I know that's why Sal at spyderco has held off on 110v for a while. Untill better machines and tools come along, it will be a waiting game. I'm sure their are custom makers who have done some of those steels, but from a manufacturing standpoint its not efficient. Once again, this is a wild guess.
 
I had a Dwyer Custom SNG in Rex20/M62 so I know it has been used in knives. It came to me with a finger print rusted into the blade beginning to try to pit so I know it's not the most corrosion resistant stuff around.
 
You need to know that hyper specialized alloys are designed primarily for applications other than knives and thus the materials properties you want to see for knives are often lacking. REX121 definitely too fragile to be a good knife steel.

People should stop valued an extremely high alloy steel to be a great blade material. I have experience using many steel like 10V, M390, M4, 3V, XHP, ZDP189 etc. some high carbide steel would be specialized at cutting cardboard/robe, but it real life usage, who needs that much wear resistance? especially if you needs to trade off the ease of sharpening and sharpness taken-able.

The most impressed steel for me is just a well heat treated 52100, its take far much better edge than all of steels mentioned and sharpen much easier. You will chip the edge if you accident hit something hard with steel like 10V or 204p while the plain carbon steel will suffer much less damage.
 
People should stop valued an extremely high alloy steel to be a great blade material.

Maybe some people just enjoy trying new things. I'd wager that most people who are willing to shell out enough money to get a knife in steels as exotic as the REX series would have at least some knowledge of the limitations of what they were purchasing.
 
The most impressed steel for me is just a well heat treated 52100, its take far much better edge than all of steels mentioned and sharpen much easier. You will chip the edge if you accident hit something hard with steel like 10V or 204p while the plain carbon steel will suffer much less damage.

It would be nice to see a controlled test of this. How much damage will the high vanadium steels really take as compared to 52100.
 
You need to know that hyper specialized alloys are designed primarily for applications other than knives and thus the materials properties you want to see for knives are often lacking. REX121 definitely too fragile to be a good knife steel.

People should stop valued an extremely high alloy steel to be a great blade material. I have experience using many steel like 10V, M390, M4, 3V, XHP, ZDP189 etc. some high carbide steel would be specialized at cutting cardboard/robe, but it real life usage, who needs that much wear resistance? especially if you needs to trade off the ease of sharpening and sharpness taken-able.

The most impressed steel for me is just a well heat treated 52100, its take far much better edge than all of steels mentioned and sharpen much easier. You will chip the edge if you accident hit something hard with steel like 10V or 204p while the plain carbon steel will suffer much less damage.

I have a couple of questions here:

1) Why do rope & cardboard cutting not qualify as "real life usage", and what does? Does "real life usage" entail cutting only low-abrasion materials like soft meat/flesh an reciept/phonebook paper? Why do you reject high wear-resistance as a "real life" concern??

2) With ubiquitous SiC and diamond hones, differences in sharpening times between these steels with similar levels of edge degradation become negligible until the edge is severely damaged and requires removal of a lot of material.

3) Steels like 52100 and stainless varieties like 13C26 are able to take a much finer edge (<1 micron) compared to high-carbide PM steels (<10 micron), but who needs edges <1 micron for any cutting other than opthalmic surgery?? Such fine edges only matter for VERY thin knives for specialized work. THAT is NOT "real life usage". Furthermore, there is insufficient material support to maintain those <1 micron edges in usage beyond the aforementioned delicate (low stress, low applied force) cutting of low-abrasion materials. The edge bends/abrades/fractures away to thickness similar to what the PM steels provide, but then the high-carbide volume of the PM steels takes over and keeps them cutting without further edge-loss due to abrasion for much longer.

4) I am surprised that you regard toughness as more important than wear-resistance in a hand-held cutting implement. :confused:

But to compare toughness, 52100 @ 58 Rc can absorb ~41 J/cm2 prior to fracture by charpy C-notch compared to 35 J/cm2 for CPM-10V as well as 20CV (same composition as CTS-204P and M390). However, at ~62 Rc M390's toughness matches 52100 @ 58 Rc, giving you a) stronger edge less prone to bending, b) tougher edge less prone to fracture, c) higher wear resistence, d) also higher corrosion resistance.

The advantages offered by 52100 steel are a) higher attainable initial sharpness, b) easier to establish that edge with poor-quality abrasives, c) cheaper. Because 52100 is prone to corrosion, that fine edge won't last long anyway but i would also argue that it isn't necessary to begin with for "real life usage". I have already mentioned that ease of sharpening only comes into play when establishing a new bevel (when a lot of material-removal is required) or when using lower quality abrasives. As for price, definitely should be a consideration but in these times of cheap energy folks don't mind paying more for what the PMs offer and the price differences are not as high as might otherwise be given the other costs involved in knife-making. Perhaps that will change in the not-so-distant future, but until then... *shrug*
 
You need to know that hyper specialized alloys are designed primarily for applications other than knives and thus the materials properties you want to see for knives are often lacking. REX121 definitely too fragile to be a good knife steel.

People should stop valued an extremely high alloy steel to be a great blade material. I have experience using many steel like 10V, M390, M4, 3V, XHP, ZDP189 etc. some high carbide steel would be specialized at cutting cardboard/robe, but it real life usage, who needs that much wear resistance? especially if you needs to trade off the ease of sharpening and sharpness taken-able.

The most impressed steel for me is just a well heat treated 52100, its take far much better edge than all of steels mentioned and sharpen much easier. You will chip the edge if you accident hit something hard with steel like 10V or 204p while the plain carbon steel will suffer much less damage.


And? You can count on one hand how many modern steels have been designed specifically for blades steels. Your post sounds like every other "who needs a car THAT fast" diatribe.

I think that highly alloyed/high carbide steels are great. In fact, my first batch of knives are in S90V. ALL steels have trade offs. If you want to hold an edge for a long time, then you can't beat the high carbide steels. If you've created them with a purpose, then who really cares if they have drawbacks? Like I said before....ALL steels have drawbacks.

Having an opinion on the matter is fine, but saying "people should stop valuing extremely high alloy steel to be great blade material" is just laughable.



Why are you so concerned with toughness anyway? Toughness is a steels resistance to impact. How often are you impacting hard objects at high speed with your pocket knife? :confused:
 
yeah, there are certain guys I really respect, who have way more knowledge than I, who preach similar things about the small carbide/low alloy steels getting better knife steels. unfortunately they come at this from the viewpoint of being expert sharpeners and knife tinkerers, not average working men without that level of dedication to the art of the edge.

so, while their ten degree inclusive edge with a ridiculously polished finish might perform much better in AEB-l steel compared to s90v, that doesn't make it superior, just different.

these same people often espouse that high alloy steels perform best at higher angles and rougher finishes... I don't know about you, but that sounds like what the vast majority of knife users need/use, which would indicate their much higher abrasion resistance actually makes them a very solid choice.

I do agree with much of their points, but not necessarily the conclusions they reach. in my experience, the high wear tool steels can be a huge benefit to average knife users. while 52100 might sharpen up much quicker, the average knife user with modest equipment won't actually be able to reach that theoretical "higher sharpness" compared to the tool steel which some experts might be able to reach on thin blades. So you end up with a knife just as sharp, which might take fifteen minutes more to sharpen, but leaves you able to go much higher periods of time in between sharpening. especially when you cut a lot of card board, where this trait really shows itself.

in my experience those fine grained, low alloy steels become damn near unusable after much abrasive cutting, as their edge becomes so deformed from dulling, while something like cpm s30v will be able to keep on cutting and cutting, even if it isn't quite "sharp". Then my knife in cpm m4 shows itself to be even more impressive in this regard. Yet I can still bring back the sharpness on my brown sharpmaker stones even after much neglect, simply because the main edge seems to stay so in tact no matter what I cut.
 
Thanks guys, and Chiral, that was one of the most helpful posts I've seen, bravo. I'm a big fan of high-wear steels myself, and I have never had issues with a knife being too brittle, though I'm not a chopper guy. I can sharpen them just as well as any other steel (read: not at all), so the differences are all positive in my usage.

(EDIT: Where did you get those Charpy numbers, by the way? I'm trying to compile a list of knife steels and hope to make it as comprehensive as possible).

I know that perhaps REX-121 was outperformed by other steels, like the A11 class alloys, but that certainly doesn't mean it was a bad knife steel by any means. I'm very interested in Rex 20 you have Mastiff, how does it perform? I also hear great things about T15, so I only assume the CPM (REX) version would be even better! M48 (REX 76 I think) is supposed to be just a step below REX-121 for wear resistance, though I don't know about toughness. I would love to see a REX revival!
 
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I'm very interested in Rex 20 you have Mastiff, how does it perform?

To be honest I didn't get enough experience with it to make any real conclusions. I also don't know what hardness it was at, or the heat treat it had. Some of those very high alloy steels can have pretty big performance differences depending on heat treats, and differing tempers. It's stated purpose was to have the high wear and red hardness in applications that made it not possible to use cobalt in the steel. I really wish I could have kept that knife and worked it out. It was sure an interesting steel composition wise, and I'm sure expensive.

I have a couple slabs of steel I haven't gotten around to testing like I wanted to. Maybe in a couple years when my income catches up with the COL. In the meantime I keep some steels like 15V, and M3-1 sitting around waiting for trials in cutlery. Neither should be any great improvements over others that are available in their class but that's not the purpose, is it? We do it because we like the learning. I have a few legitimate super steels but I also have knives in steels like O-1, and 52100 that I really like and don't mind using at all despite there being newer and more wear resistant steels, and even steels like M390 which have it beat out ( almost) in all attributes.

The two above steels, BG42/B75, Cruwear/Zwear, and a few others really make me happy despite being beaten in several categories. There is something about them I just like I guess.

Joe
 
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