The "proper" scandi grind?

G

gds

Joined
Aug 7, 2010
Messages
11
Hi folks

I have searched the forum for clarification on this matter but am not finding what I need. Any support would be appreciated. I recognize that this is a tremendous knowledge base.

I have made several bushcraft style knives using the stock removal method on 3/16ths O1. I created a jig that allows me to keep a consistent angle against the belt and have made several scandi knives that I have been able to razor up really easily and bring to an absolute mirror finish. I have used the scary sharp method of sharpening starting at 150 and working to 2000 grit wet. I sharpen these knives by actually keeping the knife steady and running a small hardwood block with the sand paper longitudinally along the entire bevel. Based on repeated results all producing the same mirror finish I had concluded that my grinds were completely flat and I had a winning recipe........until...

I recently broke down and bought some whetstones ranging from 220 to 8000. I pulled out my favorite scandi grind knife and was confident that sharpening this edge would be "textbook." Much to my surprise after an embarrassingly long time of working all grits (on perfectly flattened stones) I was not able to achieve results that were even remotely satisfactory compared to sharpening using the scary sharp method. After trying to analyze the two methods I recognized that the primary difference between the two is that when I use sand paper I run it longitudinally along the bevel and when I use the stones the motion is perpendicular to the bevel. Using the stones made it challenging to follow the bevel in the region where the blade sweeps upward. This has led me to think about the original way a scandi grind should be done and leads to my question.

When I do a scandi grind I keep the edge perpendicular to the belt all the way to the tip. This involves rotating the entire knife against the jig as I move along the upsweep of the edge in the last 1/3 of the grind. The resulting bevel is the same width the entire length of the blade. As I look at many of the posted pictures on this forum and try to see the machine marks on other scandis I think that most others are doing the same thing. I have noted, however, that the popular enzo knives seem to have scandi bevels that become progressively narrower toward the tip. If I am not mistaken this would be the result of not rotating the knife as you grind toward the tip and maintaining the same orientation of edge to belt throughout the grind. It would seem to me that this type of grinding would be easier to sharpen on a stone where the motion is perpendicular to the edge to eliminate the need to rotate the knife so much during the sharpening stroke. Of course the scary sharp method I mention above would work well here also.

At any rate, after confronting this situation, I am scratching my head and trying to determine if my grinding practice is all wrong and there is something I am missing. Should I be keeping the belt perpendicular to the edge throughout the entire length of the blade or should I be keeping the knife horizontal throughout the grind and not rotating toward the tip? Something in-between perhaps? Any comments would be appreciated.

Gary
 
The bevel at the tip and just behind the tip of a scandi ground blade has to be ground radial to the spiral or curve, that makes up that part of the blade. I don't think the blade can be ground using a technique that maintains a horizontal position during the grind.
I don't have any insight as to sharpening a scandi ground blade other than the obvious.

I'll stop back and see what others think is happening.

Regards, Fred
 
Very interesting question I find Gary. I am not a knifemaker but I have been trying to improve my knife sharpening skills over the last year or so and I have the exact same question. Although, I was wondering the same thing during sharpening a "regular" v shape edge, not necessarily a scandi edge. I can sharpen an edge either moving/turning the knife to keep the edge line always perpendicular to the grinding surface or, what I have been doing more often now, just lift up the handle but don't turn the knife anymore. The angle stays the same all along the edge, just the grind pattern changes from perpendicular to longitudinal towards the tip (beginning at the start of the belly actually). I don't know what's better and I wonder if it makes a difference in a scandi grind where you have a lot more bevel surface?!

Andy

Gary, could you post some pictures of your hard wood block and how you attach the sandpaper? Thanks!
 
Last edited:
Are "scandi" ground blades normally ground with distal taper? That would make a big difference in how they could be ground and still maintain a completely flat bevel. If the blade were ground from, flat stock, it would be a tricky move to repeat free hand and still maintain a flat surface. There is only one plane on a scandi ground blade.
 
Hi all,
Is there any videos that show how to do a scandi grind by hand and not use a jig? I would love to see how that is done.

Bryan
 
sicily02 said:
Hi all,
Is there any videos that show how to do a scandi grind by hand and not use a jig? I would love to see how that is done.

Bryan
Click to expand...
So would a few thousand other people.
 
Hi Fred
Most of the scandi bushcraft style knives I have seen and all that I have made have been from flat parallel stock. A distal taper would be a new variable that I have not yet considered. Your first post confirming that the blade should be ground radial to the spiral curve is right in line with the way I have been making these grinds. As a matter of fact I probably would have never questioned this practice if I had not encountered such issues when using a standard perpendicular sharpening stroke on whetstones. Blades ground in this manner require you to precisely follow the curvature of the blade to keep the stone stroke perpendicular to the cutting edge. If you vary even slightly you compromise the flatness of the bevel. It is apparent to me that it is far easier to sharpen these knives with a longitudinal stroke of the abrasive material the full length of the bevel. As you stated in your second post, it is indeed, a tricky move to free hand this and maintain a flat bevel. Thanks for confirming this.

I wonder if these other scandi ground knives that appear to have tapered bevels toward the tip are ground without following the precise radius of curvature of the blade. This could potentially make sharpening with a standard perpendicular stroke easier. I guess I will need to try it and find out.

Thanks again

Gary
 
Andy

I would not consider myself an absolute expert on sharpening but I believe that the method you choose when you sharpen (maintain) your secondary bevel on a standard grind should be the same as the way that the secondary bevel was originally made. For example if you followed the knife's curvature when you created or reground the secondary bevel then you should do this when you sharpen it. In this manner you would not change the plane of the secondary bevel and compromise its flatness when sharpening. With a scandi ground blade there is only a primary bevel and no secondary bevel, therefore if the original grind method and sharpening stroke are not in complete harmony with each other it is an in your face disaster because the bevel is so visible and prominent.

Gary
 
gds said:
Andy

I would not consider myself an absolute expert on sharpening but I believe that the method you choose when you sharpen (maintain) your secondary bevel on a standard grind should be the same as the way that the secondary bevel was originally made. For example if you followed the knife's curvature when you created or reground the secondary bevel then you should do this when you sharpen it. In this manner you would not change the plane of the secondary bevel and compromise its flatness when sharpening. With a scandi ground blade there is only a primary bevel and no secondary bevel, therefore if the original grind method and sharpening stroke are not in complete harmony with each other it is an in your face disaster because the bevel is so visible and prominent.

Gary
Click to expand...

Following your line of thought; every knife should come with its original primary and secondary grinds noted. Sharpening or even regrinding the blade
could be accomplished with a more positive result.

Fred
 
gds, I really like that field kit. Do you use it on non scandi knives as well? Does it work well on those too? Do you have any specific instructions on making the handle and pad (dimensions and such)?
 
Weatherman

There are no exact specs to this as I made mine to be compact yet functional. You just want to make sure that the grinding platform is the same size as one of the sides of the square sandpapaper. In my example that would be about 3 inches.

I have used the kit to successfully sharpen an axe on a couple of ocassions. I have used it many times to sharpen Scandi bevels. In many instances the edge was badly chipped up so the entire bevel required regrinding. The 150 grit paper will remove material quickly.

I have only sharpened a secondary bevel on a flat grind once. It worked fine. I expect that this system will work anywhere a small stone or diamond plate would.

Gary
 
Dmitry.M said:
If you want to see what real "scandi" blade looks like go to the Finnish website "Brisa" and look for the "scandi" brands.
https://www.brisa.fi/portal/index.php?option=com_oscommerce&osMod=index&cPath=94_37
Click to expand...

To be fair, Finland might not actually be part of Scandinavia. It depends who you ask, I guess. I have been looking at Brisa for a while now, and I don't see much in the way of country of origin on their site.

Personally, I think the origin of the term "scandi grind" comes from the Mora knives, from Sweden (definitely a Scandinavian country).


If not for the common usage, I would be calling it a saber-zero grind, or something like that, but using scandi grind saves explanation time.
 
Half flat might fit. Scandi is a catchall term that is confusing when used in conversation.
 
Fred.Rowe said:
Half flat might fit. Scandi is a catchall term that is confusing when used in conversation.
Click to expand...

Indeed it is confusing. I usually think of a scandi as a primary bevel (no secondary) with an angle anywhere between 23-30 degrees. I have heard of others who will put a very shallow secondary micro bevel on the primary bevel near the conclusion of their sharpening sequence. I tried this and will admit that the edge seems a bit more durable but , in my mind, this compromises the ease of sharpening as you now must follow this new angle instead of holding the abrasive directly against the wide primary.To me this defeats the purpose of the scandi grind and frequently touching up the secondary ultimately produces more of a convex grind.

I suppose I will one day produce more full convex and flat grinds. To date I have only produced a few of these because I am limited in tools. The flat grinds that I have made on my 1 x 30 belt grinder have not been to my complete satisfaction. This small grinder along with the jig I built for it does seem to do scandis well however. This year I chose to spend my money on a new Paragon 24 with 2400 degree elements. It was more important for me to know I had the correct heat treatment. Perhapsnext year it will be the KMG 2 x 72 grinder! Knifemaking will never be a career for me so I need to take it slow and not spend too much too soon...

I've got another on its first tempering cycle right at this moment! I've got to get back at it.

Gary
 
Hey Gary, would it be possible to also post a picture of the jig you made for your belt grinder? This time, it does not have to be a video - would be nice though...
Thanks, Andy
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top