The Rapier.. too long and heavy?

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kaotikross

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I've always found one of the most beautiful sword styles to be the rapier. From old Errol Flynn movies to the Three Musketeers, the rapier has been romanticized for hundreds of years. I actually have owned a reproduction "functional rapier" for about five years now, and I have a few observations.

1. Two and a half pounds is remarkably heavy and unwieldy in the rapier style. I don't know if it's just MY rapier, ( A Windlass Musketeer Rapier ), or this is usually the case. Most other functional rapiers are coming in at around the same weight. I can use the thing, but seriously, it's not exactly the swift strokes you'd think you could perform with a sword like you see portrayed in films, etc. I have other one handed swords that are MUCH swifter, even some katanas that move better, or so it seems to me, even though some top 3 lbs.

2. The blades are awfully long. This could have a lot to do with item #1. Not sure you really would want a 37" blade.

Anyone else with rapier experience have any light to shed on this?

Stock photo of my rapier. Lovely, but moves like a lead fishing pole.
http://windlass.com/wsc_product/musketeer-rapier/

Most rapiers from the Reinhardt/Oakeshott Collections are quoted at similar weights, so apparently 40 oz. is about the average weight of a historical (or historically accurate) rapier.
 
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Weight isn't really the thing. It's how said weight is distributed. If the weight isn't balanced correctly, yeah, it's going to handle poorly. You can expect to spend hundreds, if not thousands, on most swords that would be generally considered "good" in non-wall-hanger contexts. Windlass will very rarely make the grade, IMHO.

Length is one of the primary advantages to a rapier, in my opinion. 37" isn't that long.

If you really like rapiers, get a better version that's designed for you. Albion has some coming out soon, evidently. If you want cheaper, you could try Hanwei, although those vary widely in quality, and you want one that fits you. That's the peril with buying swords online. My understanding, which may be flawed, is that oftentimes a master swordsman would have a rapier built specifically for himself. That's certainly the case with katana.

As always, bear in mind that you get what you pay for.
 
...a fair bit longer. As for weight, whilst 2.7 lbs is not on the lighter side, neither is it excessive. There are some rapiers that tip the scale at 3 lbs or more. Again, as the other fellow pointed out, balance comes into it. If you are expecting something the weight/balance of a modern sport epee, forget it. These weapons required not only speed but strength to be fully effective.
 
Thank You all very much for your responses. As I paid $22 for the sword at a Flea Market, I won't be parting with it, (the fellow had no idea what he had, it was amongst the wall hangers and at the end of the day), but I wondered if it was "just me". I don't practice as much with it as I do other swords I own, because I'm a stickler for a clean sword and it takes fingerprints like a forensic examiner, but perhaps I should get it out more. With the forefinger actually inside the first set of rings and closer to the blade it handles much better, but the wrist maneuvers bring quite a bit of pressure on those fingers as you move..perhaps some gloves would help me. Never been a fan of gloves while practicing, but I'll find some good ones and try it and report back.
 
It is my understanding, which I acquired from one of the curators at a museum in San Diego where an Spanish rapier was on display, that rapiers were two-handed weapons. Only the six inches or so at the tip were sharpened, so the sword could be gripped mid-blade to block. I'm no student of swordsmanship, but that makes sense to me.
 
I have come to love summer weight nomex flight gloves for everything and they are great for wire grips and conpoubd hilts.
2hp5ab7.jpg


Available from many sources but I prefer to buy Hatch brand gloves. Although, my first Pakastani gloves have gone to hell and back after 20 years and are still serviceable. I burnt out one set that were too small and this new fourth pair are really just for reserve. They really do last.

Cheers

GC
 
Theatrical fencers use theatrical swords, you are burdened with the real thing. That is the iron cross you must bear and when you begin to move like Basil Rathbone and Guy Williams you will be a god.
 
Consulting my big reference book-O-swords, all of the museum rapiers weigh between 2 1/4 lb up to 3 lbs. I expected them to be lighter in weight. Large and powerful swords, indeed. As others mentioned, it's all about the balance.

You could do an experiment: add a little weight to the pommel of your sword, maybe tape on a fishing sinker or two, and see if that balances the sword better. If so, then you know what the problem is.
 
Ok folks, I found some mechanics gloves with some decent leather added in wear spots and am pleased to report that yes, much better. Just to experiment a bit, I took the sword apart, left off the cup hilt part and added some washers for spacing and WOW! Super-quick. Looks like crap, lol, and of course I won't be using it like this, I've already reassembled it correctly, but perhaps a rapier without a cup and just a simplistic swept hilt would be more my speed. It sorta reminded me of an estoc replica a friend from years back let me play with. I could see how such a long thin sword with a two handed grip could be pretty desirable. Another bonus to the gloves, btw, no fingerprints. :D
 
kaotikross said:
Ok folks, I found some mechanics gloves with some decent leather added in wear spots and am pleased to report that yes, much better. Just to experiment a bit, I took the sword apart, left off the cup hilt part and added some washers for spacing and WOW! Super-quick. Looks like crap, lol, and of course I won't be using it like this, I've already reassembled it correctly, but perhaps a rapier without a cup and just a simplistic swept hilt would be more my speed. It sorta reminded me of an estoc replica a friend from years back let me play with. I could see how such a long thin sword with a two handed grip could be pretty desirable. Another bonus to the gloves, btw, no fingerprints. :D
Click to expand...

You can probably get a replacement pommel that weighs more and try putting it together with the heavier pommel. That should noticibly change the pob and speed. It will of course make the sword heavier, but like the others said, where the weight is makes a huge difference.
 
Just curious, where is the point of balance? That makes a huge difference.
Rapier fencing never was the Errol Flynn business from the movies. Rapiers were carried and used in an environment where you might face anything from another rapier, to a cut & thrust sword up to a pike. They needed to be sturdy-and the weight seems to help parrying heavier attacks.
The more you work with it, the lighter it will feel. 37" isn't unreasonable for a rapier.
To me a lot of the Hanwei rapiers are kinda scrawny in the blade, but I'm used to a saxon sword rapier that's about 1-1/4" wide at the hilt.
 
It's about one inch past the cup. I'll be spending more time with it, things improved quite a bit once I had the gloves, I think maybe I was holding back somewhat because before the hilt and guard bars "bit" me, if that makes sense. It's not the kind of sword you'd make a huge sweeping slash with, it doesn't recover quickly that way, it's definitely about controlling the point, and I think that threw me too. Today I think I'll set up some soft targets and maybe work on thrusting with it a bit.
 
One of several good briefs on working with a rapier.
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_arms_rapier.html

If simpler and older cut and thrust style swords, look to Morrozo and a couple of others like the Spansn Destreza
http://www.duellatoria.com/class-of...kler-from-achille-morozzos-system-of-defense/

Combining all light swords of the 16th and 17th century, look at Silver
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/paradoxes.html

Then keep in mind broadsword and smallsword with McBane
http://www.aboutscotland.com/theroyalscots/histmcbane.html

Schola Gladitoria has a lot of reference work available online
http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB3/

I find a good post and concentrate on a dime size target area.. If the cup is biting you, lock the wrist more and rotate your arm hen thrusting. If you look at the four primary guards Bill oulines in that first article, you will see where that rotation comes into play.

Cheers

GC
 
...was not only no lightweight, it could be awkward at close quarters. And its advantage was reach, not so much speed. So, normally the off-hand was armed with a shorter weapon or parrying device. In fact, someone with a dedicated cut-and-thrust sword, like a western broadsword or eastern szabla would be real bad news if they could get past that reach into optimal range for their weapon, as it would be no heavier and multiple angle attacks could be made with small wrist motions.
 
kaotikross said:
It's about one inch past the cup. I'll be spending more time with it, things improved quite a bit once I had the gloves, I think maybe I was holding back somewhat because before the hilt and guard bars "bit" me, if that makes sense. It's not the kind of sword you'd make a huge sweeping slash with, it doesn't recover quickly that way, it's definitely about controlling the point, and I think that threw me too. Today I think I'll set up some soft targets and maybe work on thrusting with it a bit.
Click to expand...

One inch is not bad-mine is a full handsbreadth in front of the final ring-but it feels pretty good, and only a good parry with the forte of something lighter will knock it offline.
I would add to the cut&thrust or szabla the dussack- got a chance to play with one at an informal bear pit tournament and if you know your distance work they are no joke.
 
Light gloves are a help-most complex hilts can start hotspots on your fingers/hands very quickly. I include mine in this-with the long rapier blade (i cut down a paul chen hand and 1/2 blade to make a 32" cut & thrust that fits the same hilt) it beats up my fingers a lot, to the point it interferes with good form-with the short blade not so much. (and between forge work, sword work and kettlebells I have pretty hard hands)
 
I fenced competitively for a number of years in my youth. Modern sporting weapons are MUCH lighter than the original weapons upon which they are based. The movies you mentioned (and I suspect a good many of us on here also love) often used modern fencing blades mounted on elaborate hilts. This allows for very quick and dramatic swordplay, which is what looks good on film.

Actual rapiers were indeed hefty. As a previous commenter noted, the distribution of the weight is key. Ideally, the center of balance should be at the forte, about 1/4-1/3 of the way from the guard to the tip. This is the part of the blade used for parrying and with the weight centered there allows you to better control your opponent's blade.

Keep in mind that a rapier is designed to be a thrusting weapon. Proper form does not involve a lot of 'swinging' of the blade. Big sweeping parries are not only inefficient, but slow and leave you open for riposte or counter attack. Even a heavy weapon can be quite effective at subtle wrist work. At your best, you should always keep your point trained on your opponent and deflect any thrusts by the slightest shifts of your wrist and hand necessary.

All the rest of rapier play or fencing is footwork. In fact, we wouldn't let new fencers pick up a weapon until after several initial lessons of footwork. If you put an epee/foil/saber in a novice's hand at the beginning, they are going to be so consumed with swinging it around, they struggle to then focus on the fundamentals of footwork. Again, with a heavy traditional rapier, the fine, subtle movements will be with your wrist and fingers. The big macro movements will be propelled by your footwork.

So basically, if you want to reenact the flourishing styles of Errol Flynn with a heavy rapier of traditional proportions, you will likely be disappointed. I am admittedly unfamiliar with current reproductions, so I don't know how faithfully this Windlass version adheres to traditional specs. An authentic rapier feels alive in your hands, but can still feel unwieldy IF you're expecting a sporting blade. Temper your expectations and hone your skills and even a wall hanger can be handled well.


By the way, it is a looker, to be sure:
musketeer-rapier-1.jpg
 
Take a look at arms and armor.

http://armor.com

More expensive than many but great quality and balance. I have a couple of their swords and love them both ( Claymore and double Loop hilt Small sword ). That Small sword feels like I've got nothing in my hand... Handles like a dream.
 
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