The rare survival of old knives in great shape...

PocketKnifeJimmy

PocketKnifeJimmy

Joined
Aug 4, 2013
Messages
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Don't get me wrong, I know there are folks with knives that are 50 to 100 years old that are so mint, they look to have been purchased yesterday. But, for being items that were so common in the pocket's of almost every man & child, one would think that many more would have survived in pristine condition.
Well, I mean, that is what one would guess, but the reality is that they were very much tools that got well used (and very much carried). The use caused many to be used up (breaking, worn out, sharpened to nubs, and so on). And, of course there was the carrying... Things placed in pockets oftenly get lost. And, there is moisture, which would eventually cause such things as rust to form in hidden areas (like the backspring's sides). Deterioration was something likely more common on knives that were hard at use, and where climate offered excessive moisture.
The much older knives were of carbon steel, and of course were more susceptible to corrosion.
We today may baby them as collectibles (as I do), or use them, but likely treat them with more care than many may have done back in the day (them being considered pretty expendable).
There is also the air quality control that we today have as options in our dwellings (air conditioning and dehumidifiers), where as back in the day, if one' dwelling had pretty good year round air quality, is was likely just luck for where one was located. Today, no matter where you live, your dwelling and most work environments will have some sort of air quality controls.
I mean, this country used up knives like crazy... So many American firms that made tons of them, and of course the tons of imported knives that came in. Even so, what one often finds at yard sales, flea markets, and even antique stores, are representative specimens of old knives, but often pretty beat up in operation or condition.
It's nice to find old folding pocket knives in great condition, but for the numbers of these things made, there really are not all that many left in great to pristine condition. I'm not complaining at all, knowing it's the nature of the beast. And, it makes this entire hobby that much more intriguing.
 
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I have three or four knives in my EDC that are considerably older than I am at 65 and in a hell of a lot better shape than I am. I really enjoy slipping them in my pocket and using them through the day. They're still good users, as I hope to continue to be.:)==KV
 
PocketKnifeJimmy said:
Even so, what one often finds at yard sales, flea markets, and even antique stores, are representative specimens of old knives, but often pretty beat up in operation or condition.
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The market has changed as a result of easier ways of selling and greater access to information. I believe that most of the knives in better condition are sold on-line, most antique stores and flea markets now sell what they could not sell on-line in their shops often with no return policies. Occasionally, one finds a bargain at a yard sale, but it is pure luck.
 
As long as communities like this exist I think the future of this hobby will be bright for tomorrow's knife-nuts. With more and more people having extensive collections of pristine knives and rotations of daily users there may be plenty of those good ole time pocket knives in great condition.
Everytime we buy a Case or a GEC we are do a service to future collectors :D
 
What I've found is that living down south also contributes to the difficulty of finding knives in great shape. Considering way back then they were made up north. By the time they trickle down here they aren't in really good shape usually. But it does happen rarely that I make a good find. And us collectors have a keen eye and we are limited mentally to what we will / will not buy.
 
I've managed to find a few decent deals on a few older, but minty, fixed blades & pocketknives. Some are in the 25 to 35 yr old range. Some in the 40 to 55 yr old range. And my oldest specimen is only about 60 yrs old. I am a very picky sort, and even if it's old, I look for minty as possible (and of course it's build quality). I am not a rich man, so price has got to feel good to me. Like I mentioned earlier, it all just makes it more intriguing for me. It makes my occasional good scores that much more gratifying :)
 
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Old timers did not have access to sharpening tools like we did. Soft washita and hard arkansas oilstones were around of course, as were the unglazed rims of china and crockery. Judging by the condition of many older blades, I’d bet they were sharpened on the flattest piece of sandstone a guy could find.

My grandpa, the thrifty Scotsman, made his own small electric grinder which unfortunately turned some of his blades into thin slivers. Argh!

This, imho, is the biggest detriment in finding pristine old knives, and is why
“ never sharpened” is a selling point today.
 
Some people do like to talk grandly of a duty to future collectors: keeping knives pristine and untouched. Well I can understand that to an extent, but knives are inherently tools for use. They are mainly mass produced artefacts, so as people have mentioned, they got used up, lost, thrown out etc in enormous quantities. Crude sharpening took its toll too. But, if I came across a rare knife I liked- some Sheffield Stag from over a century ago, in pristine condition I most certainly WOULD take it into service with great joy. I'm not going to be around for long, nor are most of us really, so I think it's better to use it and take pride in it than worry about it rusting, losing/gaining value or handing a sterile object with no context onto a future generation.

Regards, Will
 
When it comes to collecting and/or using ones knives, I guess it's always going to be the "different strokes for different folks" thing. One may not fully understand why another person may get enjoyment out of having dozens (if not hundreds) of knives that get used within a constant rotation. While other folks may not be able to grasp the ownership of knives simply for the pleasure of owning such items for collecting and/or display. But, whether someone likes the idea of acquiring an old knife for a user, or for a collectable, the pleasure of it's ownership will still be there.
I am not one that believes a knife has some kind of soul or anything. So, I don't worry that my knives are somehow sad because they are not being used as tools, and that their current status is to simply be maintained and displayed somewhere in my home. Makes me happy, and that is all I care about with my ownership of these items :)
 
While there have always been people wealthy enough to acquire whatever they wanted, the numbers of those folks have skyrocketed since WWII. The vast majority of people who owned knives before that used them, and used them up. I believe Waynorth was the first one I saw on this forum to advocate for preserving the really old ones in pristine condition, as their type and quality is in an ever dwindling and non-renewing supply. I own two knives made before WWII that are in excellent condition, and they rarely get used, and hardly ever carried. But I do have several other old knives that are in good useable condition, but don't really have much collector value, and they do get used and carried, with great pleasure. So, do what you want with your oldies, but remember, when they're gone, they're gone, and it's nice to think of future generations from time to time.

1939 Keen Kutter cattle knife user
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1920s Robeson gentlemen's pen user
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I know many look at today's traditional knives as just that, a modern day replica of a traditional knife. But, I see it as more than that. I see it as an actual traditional knife still being made in the end days of such items. The "tactical" and other modern knives are the ones with the biggest following in today's market, but the waning days of the traditional knife is still here with us. I mean, being that traditionals made in the west are such a dying breed (the demand for them being much less than in days gone by), the prices are higher and their numbers are often low in production for any given model. That being the case, sure, these may survive into the future because they are often purchased as collectables, and therefore have better chances of being pristine in the future. That said, the low numbers often made of many specimens by some of the makers, will still make them rare in the future. I mean, many are made to numbers totalling less than a hundred, and that still will make them a non abundantly available item in the future... a future that may no longer have traditionals available at even the numbers we have seen them diminish to today.
Btw, when I say low production numbers, I don't mean knives made to be limited to 10,000... I am speaking more like many of Queen and GEC company specimens, where numbers are often 100 or less of many of their knives. Case produces some in that range, but overall, Case knives are well pumped out by modern traditional knife standards... So, although they may be more popular as collectables today, it's the other smaller firms making knives in much smaller numbers, that I feel could truly be the more collectable knives of future knife collectors. Just my guess/opinion :)
 
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Thanks, very interesting thread. As I read this the recent spate of Chinese-made traditional pattern knives came to mind. I don't have one (yet), but others on the forum have quite a few and speak highly of them. Putting aside the debate over the country of origin, it strikes me that these could represent a return to the old ways of carrying and using jack knives.

I don't know much about the motives behind manufacturers such as Rough Rider, but wonder what others think about this recent phenomenon.
 
I have a Schrade Cut Co. Stockman 8813 in Stainless Steel from the early 20's.Pretty rare especially being stainless for that era and in excellent condition.Can share pics if someone wants to post one for me as I do not have a photo host.Lou
 
I look at today's imports as only the latest in what has often happened in traditional pocket knife history. I mean, America is a great nation of consumers, and in the past, it was countries like Germany or Britain that shipped their cutlery to the States... In more recent decades, it was the Japanese imports that did their thing. Now China, (with their quickly improving manufacturing capabilities), is doing their thing. Labor is simply costly in the States, (when compared to many countries). So, the demand that seeks a better price, is getting it via the imports (as in days gone by).
I mean, if one takes a particular USA made knife from the history books (say of about 75 to 100 years ago), takes it's price of back then, adds in inflation up until modern day, and one can see why today's similar USA made product has reached a much higher than normal inflation cost. It really has happened before, American pocket knife makers having to compete against foreign imports. But, for example, it was some European countries that were able to give American companies hard competition, with those European counties now not being able to offer cheaper (or much cheaper) imports. Japan did well for a little while, but even they have seen much higher overhead costs to be able to continue manufacturing the cheaper alternatives... Hence now China (and again, although not the best in the world, they have certainly improved greatly in their quality).
 
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louied said:
I have a Schrade Cut Co. Stockman 8813 in Stainless Steel from the early 20's.Pretty rare especially being stainless for that era and in excellent condition.Can share pics if someone wants to post one for me as I do not have a photo host.Lou
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My parents and grandparents were very much affected by the great depression. My grandfather had to move his family to find work as there was no alternative except starve. There were no food lines to get a bowl of soup out in farm country so unless you could feed your family you went to where you can find work. They did move back later but even 40 years afterward they were extremely frugal. I got most of his hand tools upon my grandfathers death and looking back I see he had no knives that cost him more than a dollar or two. He used them until it was time to throw them away. He would have thought I was soft in the head and maybe I was being flim flammed if he saw me spending a hundred fifty dollars on a knife. He would consider having a quiet talk with me in private to see what sort of mental illness had befallen me. His last knife was an "the ideal" 2 blade jack carbon steel knife I'd consider pretty much junk not even up to Imperial Jackmaster standards of cutlery much less a Schrade or Buck or Camillus. :)

I too have run across far too many knives that were destroyed on bench grinders. Having tried to rebevel a knife on a soft arkansaas I understand the frustration but never went that far in my attempts. I heard about Norton synthetics and tried those. Those will still sharpen even the most abrasive resistant vanadium steels to this day. Until I had one even 440C was a PITA to sharpen using regular stones and I learned to appreciate 1095 and 1070. Still do in fact. :)

Joe
 
The Mastiff said:
I too have run across far too many knives that were destroyed on bench grinders.
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Keep in mind that most people thought of knives as consumable and expendable tools until fairly recently. The majority of knife owners didn't give a second thought to collectors of the future. They were all made as users!

Older knives in really great shape generally were not used for some reason by the original owner. or went unsold by retailers and got put in storage.
 
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