The Recent Proliferation of Damascus Blades

Joined
Jun 10, 2022
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154
The followimg is what I've been able to wade through regarding "Damascus Steel". Everything directly known about Damascus steel has been gathered from experiments done on relatively recent artifacts, simply because such artifacts do not survive for thousands of years. The defining trait of Damascus steel is layering, not the pattern.

Every scientific finding I uncovered is refuted by another scientific finding, and the entire movement is most likely chasing legends. One such legend is that Japanese warriors preferred their layered swords to rifles, because the swords were so tough you could sever a rifle barrel with one.

Damascus is a semi-recent development of layering. Layering produces steel that is vastly superior in toughness and strength to forged steel. Damascus was identifiable by the characteristic pattern, somewhat like what is achieved presently by pattern-welded steel.

But originally, it wasn't the pattern the smiths were after. It just happened to be a characteristic of the finished product, and was not nearly as pronounced as today's acid etched Damascus. Ancient Japanese swords were folded up to 4,000 times, and were highly polished as to mute the pattern as much as possible.

Even in medieval times, no one cared about the pattern on folded steel. Soldiers wanted a blade they could swing full force, again and again, to tear through armor. Actually, when the crossbow came into use, it made armor obsolete, prompting one historian to claim the crossbow would surely end all human life.

Today, Damascus steel is valued much more for the look of it. Most, if not all, Damascus blades are ground from commecially available, industrially manufactured billets, like these: https://damascussteelbillets.com/product-category/our-products/damascus-billets/

When a Damascus blade knife says 'hand made', it doesn't generally refer to hand layering the blade, only grinding it into the desired shape and other hand work done to make the knife. The link I posted has overpriced billets. You can purchase them for about 1/2 of that. I used that link, because it doesn't have anything on it but Damascus Steel billets. Also, with billets, you can order the pattern ready made.

If you want to know more, Google is your friend. Damacus steel is layered high-carbon/low-carbon, so you get the best of both worlds. Each layer blends with the adjacent layer, welding it, not like arc welding, but forging and hammering welding, does produce a tough blade that can typically be 1mm thinner for the same strength in breaking as powdered steel.

One sure way to identify real Damascus steel as it is made today, although it is not always the case, are slight blemishes on the edge. Knifemakers in India especially, leave the belemishes rather than hone them out. But not every blade will initially hone to reveal blemishes (small spots on the edge)

These are easily honed out if one finds them bothersome. I have a neighbor from Sri Lanka where the blades are actually hand layered. He was at a festival of some sort, and someone asked if he wanted these knives. Apprarently there's much haggling, but he thought of me, and got me 2 identical knives, for $60 (and undoubtedly at a tidy profit for himself. Average wage there is $1.20/hr , 440LKR Sri Lankan currecy.)

They aren't identical like a manufactured knife. They look similar to each other. And you can tell they're made with hand tools. Previous to this I was never quite sure if what I have is Damascus. But once you see it once, you'll not easily forget.

Those 2 are the first I have with a slight dip in the blade. So, I can't sharpen it on a flat stone. Any advice on the best way to get inside that slight dip. It's about 1/4"x at the deepest, and about 5"long on an arc. Thanks for all the help.
 
Knifemakers in India especially, leave the belemishes rather than hone them out. But not every blade will initially hone to reveal blemishes (small spots on the edge)
I don't think anyone considers what they make Damascus.
 
Every scientific finding I uncovered is refuted by another scientific finding, and the entire movement is most likely chasing legends. One such legend is that Japanese warriors preferred their layered swords to rifles, because the swords were so tough you could sever a rifle barrel with one.
That’s just nonsense. I could smash a rifle barrel closed with a hammer… does that mean I should carry the hammer over the rifle?
 
I don't think anyone considers what they make Damascus.
Are you referring to Indian knifesmiths? What is it then? To the best of my research, right down to testing, the knives appear to be pattern-welded, commonly referred to as Damascus. I've been fooled before, but it isn't more than once per decade.

I admit some ultra-junk comes out of India. And, Sri Lanka is not actually India, but the people and culture of adjacent southern Indian states are quite similar. Truth be told, many of the finest cutlery producers simply lack skills necessary to market outside their geographical area.

They have no motivation to do so, because they're craftsmen, not businessmen. One of my favorite ventures is seeking out obscure cutlery shops in foreign nations. One of my best stilettos came from Mexico City! It was expensive, for Mexico, 30-some dollars if memory serves. But the ones kids sold on the streets were going for 3-5 dollars, after a bit of negotiation.

I don't know if it was even legal to carry stilettos across the border. The border patrol didn't seem very interested in hasseling shoppers reentering the US.
 
The followimg is what I've been able to wade through regarding "Damascus Steel". Everything directly known about Damascus steel has been gathered from experiments done on relatively recent artifacts, simply because such artifacts do not survive for thousands of years. The defining trait of Damascus steel is layering, not the pattern.

Every scientific finding I uncovered is refuted by another scientific finding, and the entire movement is most likely chasing legends. One such legend is that Japanese warriors preferred their layered swords to rifles, because the swords were so tough you could sever a rifle barrel with one.

Damascus is a semi-recent development of layering. Layering produces steel that is vastly superior in toughness and strength to forged steel. Damascus was identifiable by the characteristic pattern, somewhat like what is achieved presently by pattern-welded steel.

But originally, it wasn't the pattern the smiths were after. It just happened to be a characteristic of the finished product, and was not nearly as pronounced as today's acid etched Damascus. Ancient Japanese swords were folded up to 4,000 times, and were highly polished as to mute the pattern as much as possible.

Even in medieval times, no one cared about the pattern on folded steel. Soldiers wanted a blade they could swing full force, again and again, to tear through armor. Actually, when the crossbow came into use, it made armor obsolete, prompting one historian to claim the crossbow would surely end all human life.

Today, Damascus steel is valued much more for the look of it. Most, if not all, Damascus blades are ground from commecially available, industrially manufactured billets, like these: https://damascussteelbillets.com/product-category/our-products/damascus-billets/

When a Damascus blade knife says 'hand made', it doesn't generally refer to hand layering the blade, only grinding it into the desired shape and other hand work done to make the knife. The link I posted has overpriced billets. You can purchase them for about 1/2 of that. I used that link, because it doesn't have anything on it but Damascus Steel billets. Also, with billets, you can order the pattern ready made.

If you want to know more, Google is your friend. Damacus steel is layered high-carbon/low-carbon, so you get the best of both worlds. Each layer blends with the adjacent layer, welding it, not like arc welding, but forging and hammering welding, does produce a tough blade that can typically be 1mm thinner for the same strength in breaking as powdered steel.

One sure way to identify real Damascus steel as it is made today, although it is not always the case, are slight blemishes on the edge. Knifemakers in India especially, leave the belemishes rather than hone them out. But not every blade will initially hone to reveal blemishes (small spots on the edge)

These are easily honed out if one finds them bothersome. I have a neighbor from Sri Lanka where the blades are actually hand layered. He was at a festival of some sort, and someone asked if he wanted these knives. Apprarently there's much haggling, but he thought of me, and got me 2 identical knives, for $60 (and undoubtedly at a tidy profit for himself. Average wage there is $1.20/hr , 440LKR Sri Lankan currecy.)

They aren't identical like a manufactured knife. They look similar to each other. And you can tell they're made with hand tools. Previous to this I was never quite sure if what I have is Damascus. But once you see it once, you'll not easily forget.

Those 2 are the first I have with a slight dip in the blade. So, I can't sharpen it on a flat stone. Any advice on the best way to get inside that slight dip. It's about 1/4"x at the deepest, and about 5"long on an arc. Thanks for all the help.
Ummm, get a knife, Bro.
Fidget with it on the couch so you don’t have time to write piles of vomit on our forum.
Thanks in advance,
Tim
 
Sorry, I spaced out after the first 3 paragraphs...

Just being honest, for a dress knife or collector peice that rarely gets used, I just want the damascus to look good. Don't really care about the makeup, forging process, or wether or not its "real" damascus...

If I need to try and chop ol' boys AK in half I'll just use something in 3V.. 🥴
 
That’s just nonsense. I could smash a rifle barrel closed with a hammer… does that mean I should carry the hammer over the rifle?
It is really stupid. But the Pols in WWII took to horseback with sabers against German tanks, were consequently annihilated and threw down their arms in surrender! And, the Japanese, after sustaining one nuclear attack, were confident their Shinto Gods would protect them from further attacks, even though they were warned by the US, in the absence of surrender, another attack would follow.

The point is, there probably is no sword that can sever a rifle barrel. For one, the barrel would break before you'd get a clean cut. Which brings me to the immutable maxim: "There are obvious limits placed on human intellect, but none whatsoever on stupidity."
 
Sorry, I spaced out after the first 3 paragraphs...

Just being honest, for a dress knife or collector peice that rarely gets used, I just want the damascus to look good. Don't really care about the makeup, forging process, or wether or not its "real" damascus...

If I need to try and chop ol' boys AK in half I'll just use something in 3V.. 🥴
Forewarning, those suffering adhd should probably avoid my OPs.
 
Forewarning, those suffering adhd should probably avoid my OPs.
Clearly,.. that's why after the brain bleed I had after your last Wootz post I debated even clicking on this one...

So, you're saying you have nothing to say?
I think what everyone is trying to say is why the hell does it matter so much...

You are more concerned about the historical accuracy of damascus than most people are about the welfare of their own children...
 
If I remember correctly it should be coming shortly.
About wootz steel. It seems to exist only by agreement between those who study it, with some help from old manuscript fragments. It's kind of like what dinosaurs really looked like. No one knows, so a bunch of people get together and make it up as best they are able.

Truth by consensus alone, devoid of experimental evidence, has a tendency to mushroom into legends, one of which is wootz steel. Damascus blades are a tiny fragment of a much larger industry encompassing layered steel. If we're only focused on that little sliver, the bigger picture is lost, and the art with it.

If anyone wants a blade that looks like Damascus, many companies coat their blades with electrostatic mask, expose it to a pattern of light of their choosing, spray electrically charged acid at the blade, which only sticks where the coating was exposed to light, rinse off the blade, and it looks like Damascus.

But if you buy 10 of them, you'll get at least 2 identical patterns. Making the patterns for the light is the difficult part, so the manufacturers use them again and again. I even sent back a Damascus folder, because the pattern in the website photo was identical to the one I received.

I asked the seller if it was actual pattern-welded. He admitted it was similar, but not exactly. That means 'photo-etched'.

First of all, Damascus was 2 different steels layered together hundreds of times. I'm not convinced wootz is the key to Damascus steel. I believe it may have been used in certain forges, and that it did actually exist, but I strongly doubt it's the magic bullet it's made out to be. I can find no foundational evidence beyond guessing to confirm wootz steel was commonly used in layered edged weapons.

And, if anyone would like to find that ever elusive missing piece of the puzzle, I'm all ears. But I don't think I've located the national motivational trust here on blade forums.

I am not the least bit bothered when commenters straight-up admit they have nothing to say on the subject. Those are dwarfed by the 'like' reactions. If I got under the skin of some members, why don't they put it behind them, instead of posting meaningless banter!

Believe it or not, there's actual satisfaction in constructive activities and cooperation. Don't be intimidated by me. If it was 10 below zero, I'd give any one of you the hat off my head! So, let's clean up the piss-poor attitudes, criticize constructively, and check major malfunctions at the log in prompt.

We're all mature adults. Let's act like it. Although when I first joined, I had no idea what I was getting into. But, I learned fast. No more off-topic rabbit holes. I just get carried away. But I'm extra careful now on Blade Forums. I am no one's enemy.
 
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