The result of a few minutes sketching: the Suga Bowie

Joined
Jun 21, 2014
Messages
1,141
So about a week ago I was discussing Bowie knives with someone, and he mentioned one of his criteria for a true bowie knife was that it had to have a two branched guard. It got me to thinking about how the Padam Suga is a hybrid of the Bowie and the Kukri. Well today I saw a piece of paper lying around and two of my knives next to each other, and I decided to combine the two and add on a guard to create the Suga Bowie. Now granted, I'd consider it to have a bit more bowie in it with a longer blade, about 10 inches instead of 6 and 3/4, but I don't have a big enough piece of paper for that. And it turns out my cell phone camera is decent enough for alright photos. So without further ado...



And a picture of the picture with the two knives that went into it, my Tanto and my Suga.



The design may remain just a sheet of paper, but it was quick and fun to do it, so why not post it for everyone's pleasure? Don't answer that.
 
Last edited:
Ok, I don't know why it shrank the second image, but here's a larger picture.

 
Reminds me of a stouter version of a bowie that Howard Wallace had made for him by HI:

...

1013517_10200917584516384_1186604360_n.jpg


L1 – (right) A bowie style with a heavier blade for significant chopping and utility use. Capable of backcutting. Draws on the design of the historical Bart Moore bowie.

L2 – (left) A thin-bladed dirk/bowie style oriented a bit more towards fencing. Capable of backcutting.

L3 – (center) A light and quick khukuri modeled on the one-of-a-kind udhaipur that inspired the Gelbu special. The udhaipur was significantly lighter and quicker than most of the GSs. The khukuri shape gives a significant chopping advantage but gives up the backcutting ability.






L-1
Overall length 13/3/4''
Weight --18 oz
Spine thickness--1/4''
Blade width --1 3/4''
Brass guard, bolster and buttcap
Satisal wood handle
Leather sheath



L-2
Overall length 17''
Weight --18 oz
Spine thickness--1/4''
Blade width --1 3/8''
Brass guard, bolster and buttcap
Horn handle
Leather sheath





L-3
Overall length 16.5''
Weight --20 oz
Spine thickness--1/4''
Brass guard, bolster, buttcap and tip
Horn handle
Standard leather scabbard





A word on the guard and the cho. The use of forward curving guards was well known in the historical western traditions of swordplay. A Google image search of “Florentine guard” should yield some interesting examples. These could be used to bind an opponent’s blade by the expedient of spiraling around once blade to blade contact occurred. This causes the forward guard at the forte (strong point) of one’s blade to engiage and bind the opponent’s blade, most probably at the foible (weak point) but possibly anywhere. Keating’s insight was that aligning a Spanish notch with the guard often lead to the happy accident of a blade being directed into the notch, creating possibilities for opportunistic breaks, binds, and disarms. My experiments indicate that the cho’s on the liberty series effectively present the same opportunities. For purposes of illustration I requested the assistance of my houseguest, Ms. Kuang Danmei, a taiji sword instructor from Beijing. Ms. Kuang is using a long foil for demonstration purposes, as we were working with a live blade and this provided a safe distance. You can see some illustrative binds in the photos below. The same techniques work with wider blades than foils.

1044920_10200917595996671_1239022332_n.jpg


998027_10200917585236402_480557236_n.jpg


from www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1085492-The-Liberty-Series
 
Reminds me of a stouter version of a bowie that Howard Wallace had made for him by HI

L1 or L2? Kind of ironic, because the idea of a kukri with a trapping guard like the L3 did occur to me, but most of what I was going for what giving the Suga a guard. That and fixing what I consider to be the Suga's one flaw (in my view): the handle. I'm not a huge fan of the Suga handle. It just doesn't fit quite as well as I would like. So I took one of the most ergonomic handles of any of my knives and mated the two along with the trapping guard. Now to figure out how to communicate things like the exact palm swell of the tanto handle if I ever did custom order this one...
 
I really like the L-1 design. When Howard first posted these pictures it sounded like the kamis might make extras for sale as DOTDs. I hope that eventually happens, although with the continuing earthquake disaster it might take a long time.
 
Liberty Series as I recall. I know it was tough to pick a favorite when he first posted those and it created quite a rousing discussion of the advantage of one over the other. As I recall I never did make a this is my favorite decision.
 
So I showed this drawing to a friend of mine and mentioned how at some point I would like to draw one up with a longer blade, I just don't have paper big enough to do it. Eventually I'll get bigger paper and try to increase the size of the blade. A lot of the reason why the drawing is so clean is that I traced a pencil around the actual blade and handle. But I've gotten off topic. I mentioned how the guy I correspond with on knives (I suppose mentor is the most accurate title for him) favors blades of about 10-11 inches for Bowies. My friend then says "any bigger than that and it becomes a dirk". I then told him that despite what the Redwall series of books says, a dirk is more than just a blade between a knife and sword in length. He then realized that he'd forgotten that the Redwall books were where he had learned about dirks.

Bawanna, in that thread you declared a marked preference for the L2, the most dirk-like of the blades.
 
For some reason I now have a marked preference for L1 but I still like L2 alot and L3 ain't no slouch neither.
 
...at some point I would like to draw one up with a longer blade, I just don't have paper big enough to do it. Eventually I'll get bigger paper and try to increase the size of the blade. ...

I had the same paper problem with the Liberty series above. I ended up taking the scissors to a paper grocery bag, and made the drawings on the brown kraft paper. That's what got sent to the kamis, along with notations and arrows, and a word document with photos showing things like the way the guards functioned. The kamis were able to get the idea when they understood the functions I was going for.
 
I had the same paper problem with the Liberty series above. I ended up taking the scissors to a paper grocery bag, and made the drawings on the brown kraft paper. That's what got sent to the kamis, along with notations and arrows, and a word document with photos showing things like the way the guards functioned. The kamis were able to get the idea when they understood the functions I was going for.

That's handy. I suppose I could also go to the college's bookstore and buy art supply paper. I know they have big enough paper. I've seen people walking out of there with 3'x4' sketch pads. Come to think of it, I don't think any of the local grocery stores do paper bags anymore.

I suppose one issue that may come up with the guard I drew is that I've never used any knife with a trapping guard. I understand theoretically how they work, but trying to get the details correct in any final design may be difficult.
 
That's handy. I suppose I could also go to the college's bookstore and buy art supply paper. I know they have big enough paper....

I suppose one issue that may come up with the guard I drew is that I've never used any knife with a trapping guard. I understand theoretically how they work, but trying to get the details correct in any final design may be difficult.

You can tape two or three sheets of paper together to get the desired length. Finish the sketch before running tape along the edges, or you can just tape the back of the paper. It helps to use the stiffest paper available. Or even a couple of cut up manila folders.

About the trapping guard: Why try to reinvent the wheel on everything? Howard's photos show three good examples by someone who knows his stuff, and you can find a thousand other examples by an internet search. I would take one of Howard's guard shapes and adapt it to the size of your intended blade.

I seem to recall from a couple of your other postings that you're a student. The problem with college work is that students are discouraged from using anyone else's ideas. It's called plagiarism, and is treated like the plague. But that's not how things work in the real world. In the RW, apprentices learn from masters, and masters learn by observing the work of other masters and applying their own creativity to their work. Likewise in engineering, science, art, music and every other field except schoolroom learning where teamwork is relatively uncommon and everyone is just competing with everyone else for grades. You can have an original idea for a knife and still incorporate design concepts from other people, and it will still be your design. I know you've been doing some of that when you solicit feedback on this forum.

If this sounds like a rant it's because I once worked on a team with a then-recent graduate student who thought, at first, that there was something wrong with getting ideas from co-workers. When I realized that it was due to her having spent six years in a college environment, I was able to explain the difference and she was an excellent team worker after that.

Perhaps the key difference between the school environment and the work environment is this: In school the aim is to show what you can do by yourself; on a real job the aim is to get the job done and done right.
 
You can tape two or three sheets of paper together to get the desired length. Finish the sketch before running tape along the edges, or you can just tape the back of the paper. It helps to use the stiffest paper available. Or even a couple of cut up manila folders.

About the trapping guard: Why try to reinvent the wheel on everything? Howard's photos show three good examples by someone who knows his stuff, and you can find a thousand other examples by an internet search. I would take one of Howard's guard shapes and adapt it to the size of your intended blade.

I seem to recall from a couple of your other postings that you're a student. The problem with college work is that students are discouraged from using anyone else's ideas. It's called plagiarism, and is treated like the plague. But that's not how things work in the real world. In the RW, apprentices learn from masters, and masters learn by observing the work of other masters and applying their own creativity to their work. Likewise in engineering, science, art, music and every other field except schoolroom learning where teamwork is relatively uncommon and everyone is just competing with everyone else for grades. You can have an original idea for a knife and still incorporate design concepts from other people, and it will still be your design. I know you've been doing some of that when you solicit feedback on this forum.

If this sounds like a rant it's because I once worked on a team with a then-recent graduate student who thought, at first, that there was something wrong with getting ideas from co-workers. When I realized that it was due to her having spent six years in a college environment, I was able to explain the difference and she was an excellent team worker after that.

Perhaps the key difference between the school environment and the work environment is this: In school the aim is to show what you can do by yourself; on a real job the aim is to get the job done and done right.

Funny, I thought I didn't post the comment where I was going to say "I don't want to just go and carbon copy someone else's design". Wait, I didn't. Now how did you know... HE'S A WITCH! BURN HIM! Though in honesty part of it is a stubborn desire to accomplish some of this stuff on my own. I've had the misfortune of dealing with a few too many people who pounced on and criticized any request for information or help, and I've realized what happened and am seeking to reverse that. I do seem to recall some makers throwing a hissy fit if someone creates a knife that even looks similar. However, those makers do seem to be a minority, or they are people who have been burnt by people making exact copies and are going to be touchy as a result. Still, just looking at four different trapping guards, I notice that they all share a few characteristics which mine lacks, namely that little extra bit of metal on the inside of the tips. I had to look more closely at one I'd looked at before to realize it.

Howard, how much space is there in between the tips of the guards and the blades in your designs?

And Bawanna, what indeed?
 
I have always loved the look of the L2. Gorgeous designs, Howard:)

A Suga with a guard would make a formidable knife;)
 
You should be able to get dimensions off the photos above. Yangdu gave overall length. That will give you the scale. You may also want to look at historical swords for other examples of trapping guards. Try searching for the Wallace sword, and Florentine guards. That will get you started, but there is much more.
 
Back
Top