The ricasso problem

awestib

awestib

Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
1,647
I really like to support custom knife makers. I think it's an awesome craft and there is too much mass production out there anyway. However I have one particular issue and it's not just an aesthetic problem but actually bugs me quite a bit when sharpening. And that's the edge near/at the ricasso. Here is a Fallkniven that shows how it should be

knife.php.jpeg

In most cases however, there is some irregularity close to the ricasso and most often the edge goes "outwards" if you guys understand what I mean. That gives problems to the whole sharpening process on flat stones, strops etc. To solve that problem, I have to grind away a lot of metal in that area before the edge becomes straight with the rest. I know some of you may now think why don't you use a narrow stone (rod) or a belt sander or such and don't worry about it and most of you that think that way also like recurves I believe which I don't at all for the same reason. So, why not just adding a "notch" at the end of the edge at the ricasso and get it over with? I am not even asking for discontinuation of all recurve productions :)

My two cents!
Andy
 
I am getting that you appreciate a choil (notch or indentation commonly ground into the edge at the "plunge line" where it meets the ricasso), but i am not sure what you mean by "outwards"... can you give an example?
 
A lot of people do not like a choil (that is what that "notch" is called) because it can hang up in the material being cut. Others prefer a giant choil- one large enough to put their finger in to "choke up." This doesn't make sense to me as you have the same effect by bringing the blade edge all the way back to the handle, with the added benefit of having a real handle to hold onto. But, that is another discussion. Also, whether it is a choil or a dull spot at the very heel of the blade, you are still losing useful blade length. Personally, I prefer a knife to have the blade edge come all the way back and effectively eliminate the ricasso all together. However, I to am annoyed when I see a knife with that recurve effect (for lack of a better term) at the heel of the blade. Below is my personal preference. Image shamelessly taken from hogcult.com...

busse-sar5-2000862.jpg
 
It bothers me too, though a lot less since I started using waterstones for everything. Its easy to put a slight radius on one long edge and then I can sharpen this "recurved" area without having to grind it flat. A lot of knives come with this "defect", even ones with a choil - its a common hallmark of the belt-sharpened edge.
 
chiral.grolim said:
I am getting that you appreciate a choil (notch or indentation commonly ground into the edge at the "plunge line" where it meets the ricasso), but i am not sure what you mean by "outwards"... can you give an example?
Click to expand...

Just imagine the heel of a knife that has been sharpened a lot. That recurve like effect of a warn blade is what he is talking about- but on a new blade...
 
Thanks for clearing up terms here! Yes, that's what I mean, a small choil, or as hlee mentioned a proper made edge all the way back is how it should be. And chiral.grolim, with "outwards" I meant the "recurve effect" as hlee labeled it. Thanks guys!
 
I understand what you mean by "edge goes outward" but its not the fault of the knife or grind type but your understanding of how to sharpen it. Removing a bunch of metal is not the answer and you are actually distorting the curve of the blade.

The answer is to drop the handle a bit so you actually make proper contact. The edge itself is likely one continual curve meaning your contact area at any given point is only a few mm wide.
 
Man, I feel your pain. I've got to the point where I just carve little sharpening choils into knives that don't have them to start with, and straighten out edges that have a slight recurve to them. I ended up doing that with my Hogue after I got the wavy edge straightened out (the edge had a fairly substantial recurve to it and by the time I got it sharpened out, the sharpening choil had been ground away), and with my BD30P Manix after a few sharpenings.

Before:
IMGP1777.jpg


After:
IMGP1995.jpg


My Izula has some pretty substantial recurve to it, too. I thought it would look like this:

desert-izula-cord-wrapped.jpg


But it turned out to have some shenanigans near the choil which would have made it a bit of a pain to sharpen on a benchstone:

IMGP1687.jpg


I just sharpen it with sandpaper and a mousepad now, so it's not an issue.

I'd love it if every folding knife had a blade vaguely like this:

IMGP1990.jpg
 
knifenut1013 said:
I understand what you mean by "edge goes outward" but its not the fault of the knife or grind type but your understanding of how to sharpen it. Removing a bunch of metal is not the answer and you are actually distorting the curve of the blade.

The answer is to drop the handle a bit so you actually make proper contact. The edge itself is likely one continual curve meaning your contact area at any given point is only a few mm wide.
Click to expand...

I have come to the conclusion that the effect that is being discussed here is not really a design feature as much as it is a result of less than perfect attention to detail by the knife maker. There are plenty of examples of knives on the exchange right now where the maker took the effort to bring the edge back to the ricasso nearly perfectly perpendicularly, that the example that does not stands out as a flaw.
 
Thank you all for the clarification/illustration, i understand the symptom now, both Izula's I've purchased curved outward slightly at the heel just before the choil. I agree with hlee and HeavyHandedthat it is a sign of lower attention to detail on the part of a sharpener or caution because the sharpening was entirely done by machine-grinding - one is much more careful near the tip and the heel of the blade so as not to remove too much metal... which is funny since that is one of the specific reasons for the choil! (i.e. you sharpen all the way down to the plunge/ricasso and THEN remove the defective-looking section of edge, thus CREATING the choil ;))

I also like the design illustrated by that Alias pictured (my BM585s is similar), where the "choil" blends into a recessed ricasso, somewhat featured on the ESEE 3-6 and the like, more prominent in the RatManDu. To hlee, I am one who does like a finger-sized choil (note, not a finger groove below the choil like Striders and Spydercos often feature), though the SAR5 or the Muk is my prefered design as well. The reason I like that large finger groove is that it effectively shortens an otherwise longer blade. I like the reach of the RMD but I often need better TIP-control than my skill-level lets me achieve holding the knife by only the handle, so i "choke up". For carving with the heel of the blade, choking up also reduces the amount of length sticking out that I'm not paying much attention to - I can carve/whittle with a choil-less machete, but I am happier with a shorter blade. So why not simply use a shorter blade for such tasks? Well, sometimes I feel the need for the extra length that the larger blade provides, and the choke-up feature allows me to utilize one tool as if it were two :) Also, I have more trouble on finer work with knives that bring the blade right to the guard and minimize the ricasso followed by a thicker handle - for some reason, i always reach beyond the guard (if there is one) and pinch the blade *shrug* Luke Swenson has a few knives that narrow the handle scales to flow into the blade stock :thumbup:. A finger-sized choil also functions as a guard that won't get hung up, which can be a big benefit. And typing of "hung up", I've never had this problem with choils ever since my lead finger is always either IN or immediately beneath, I more often hook material into the guard if there is one *shrug*. To each their own, I guess.
Lastly, the Jarvenpaa Aito has NO choil whatsoever and minimal ricasso... but the plunge-line (at least on mine) is poorly executed, the blade isn't actually ground all the way to the ricasso - if you look at the blade edge-on, the tiny ricasso tapers-in to form the edge.

Alright, derailment ended.
 
Last edited:
awestib said:
Doritos Monk, how did you do it on the Hogue? Looks great!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the kind words! I ended up just wrapping a piece of wet-or-dry sandpaper around a cheap ceramic sharpening rod I had and then sanded out the recess by hand. It was a bit ghetto, but it worked pretty well in the end. I will probably end up doing the same thing to a couple of other knives, but I might have to come up with a better way of doing it in the future.

My first attempt was with the corner of a ceramic stone on my BD30P Manix...it worked in the end, but sweet jesus it's ugly. :p I'll have to take a picture of it...
 
Nice work, Dorito Monk -- the Hogue looks awesome in that "after" shot! I wish they came from the factory with a choil/edge like that! :thumbup:
 
Just ran into this problem on my Izula. Reassuring to see some else mentioning it.
 
Hmm, very interesting thread. I am in the process of figuring out what to do with my favourite small folder, the Al Mar Mini SERE 2000. As you can see, it has a HUGE ricasso:

ALMS2K.jpg


Anyone think that it would be a good idea to just grind more edge into the ricasso? What would be the best way to do this?
 
Hmm, very interesting thread. I am in the process of figuring out what to do with my favourite small folder, the Al Mar Mini SERE 2000. As you can see, it has a HUGE ricasso:

ALMS2K.jpg


Anyone think that it would be a good idea to just grind more edge into the ricasso? What would be the best way to do this?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top