The sad state of the UK

K

Kiri

Joined
Jun 20, 2002
Messages
96
While I am sympathetic that if a person has lost a member of their family or friend in a stabbing they will be driven by extreme emotion.

This is obviously an emotive issue.

But this type of media scaremongering and knee jerk idiotic campaigning.

Makes me sick. :barf:

How uninformed people are!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,1271,-4670096,00.html

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/news/s/140/140048_knife_law_demand.html

Its nice to see an article by someone who has a slightly wider view however!

http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/0000000CA825.htm

http://www.spy.org.uk/spyblog/archives/2004/12/knives_out_for.html

or one by someone with a sense of humour

http://www.zen19725.zen.co.uk/weblog/art_394.html


Unfortunately the masses only read the first two :barf:

Sadly in a few years we Brits on Bladeforums will have to get you Americans to post us pictures of knives because we wont be allowed anything sharp or made of metal. But I am sure by then that might be illegal too. Paper cuts can be real nasty. :mad:

Protect your freedoms Ladies and Gentlemen! while you still can :rolleyes:
 
Moving to Knife Laws ...

"will demand that ministers introduce a five-year minimum jail term for carrying an object with a blade longer than three inches" ... of course there are loonies everywhere, but are these loonies being taken seriously?
 
Cougar Allen said:
... of course there are loonies everywhere, but are these loonies being taken seriously?
Click to expand...
Unfortunately the loonies in Oz are the politicians and they make the laws regardles of how seriously anyone takes them. We are almost at the point where it's becoming illegal to defend yourself. Like the man said, take care wherever you are and don't let them erode your rights!
 
Can anyone tell me if I go through Heathrow with a bunch of spydercos, emersons and benchmades in my cargo baggage, will those misguided brits confiscate my folders?

In the early 90s, I carried a bunch of balis through heathrow, I showed them to customs, and they were OK with it. I said they were my personal fruit knives.

I also got body searched once at Heathrow.
 
Ok.

As far as I know it's OK to travel with a knife in your checked baggage. (I.e It goes in the hold and not your hand luggage!)

The difficulty may come once you have left the plane.

Heathrow has some of the tightest security in the world and the best scanning equipment.

In the UK you may only carry in a public place a slipjoint with a blade (cutting edge) of less than 3"

To carry any other locking blade or fixed blade you need to be able to prove absolutley that you have a legitimate reason for having it. (e.g. You are a Chef and thus have your chef knives in a roll on your way to work)

There are some items which are specifically prohibited. (Switchblades, Balisongs, Concealed knives etc..)

So if you are staying in the UK, then I personally would wrap up your knives (taped in a parcel is good) and have them in the hold. If you are then stopped in the Airport or in the UK with them in your suitcase I would guess you could say you are transporting them from A-B or have bought them over as gifts etc.

For a guide to the actual law here is a good guide :

http://www.bkcg.co.uk/guide/law.html

Happy Travelling
 
Thanks, kiri. I have not been to the UK for about 10 years.

One part of my question that I appear not to have emphasized, is that, if my check-in baggage is searched at heathrow, and knives are found in it, will they be confiscated? Even if they are below 3 inches? How about something like a spyderco delica(3 in), kopa(2 and a half in), or jester(below 2 in)?

Looks like I will only bring in throwaways if I come in.

Also, there seems to be a grey area with you saying no locking folding knives, and the BCKG and acts saying any folder above/below 3 inches, no mention of locking or slipjoint.

I'm sorry, but after reading the link, my sense is that there is no respect there for the basic human right of self-defence, and to have the means to effectively exercise that right, in Britain.

Right now, I have read there is a knife hysteria in GB, and I think it just stems from the Labour govt's weakness over crime, that is causing the increase if any. To restrict crime, you need to punish those who commit it, not go about and hysterically criminalize innocent knife-users or those who only seek to defend themselves.

If you don't allow people to defend themselves, it simply shows no respect for the basic human rights of others and is the mark of a facist-liberal nanny-state society.

Are you saying that if I am attacked by those criminals you refuse to punish, due to your moral weakness and softness, I should just roll over and die? Are you going to come to my funeral and cry your eyes out?

Saying that it is wrong to carry your knife to a football match, to Tesco's....this is absurd.......those are exactly the places you need your knife, because criminals will know that those places are undefended due to ridiculous laws and will commit their depredations there, just like gunmen always go amok in gun-free zone schools in america.

Every country has its flaws, but this attitude in GB, just like anywhere else in the world, makes me sick and want to vomit.

Incidentally, I used to work as an armed LEO, holding officer rank. I support the work of LEOs everywhere. But, though knife attacks are an always a danger to LEOs, I would never be so selfish and disrespectful as to deny any person the right and means to defend himself.

You sound like you work as an LEO too. I hope that you may see my point someday.
 
Hi,

I should think with your Spydies you will be OK. If you are questioned you might get away with having a very good reason for the knives needing to lock.

A friend of mine got away with having a balisong at Heathrow (before they were made specifically illegal) because we were going overseas rock climbing and mountaineering and he claimed it was an essential part of his climbing equipment and that he needed to be able to open the knife with one hand!

You would not get away with that these days I think. (actually the Police officer who was questioning him over the knife "hinted" that might be a good thing for him to say. A nice guy)

The law is a very grey area. One piece of legislation just says that the blade needs to be under 3". Later there was an ammendment which said that a lock knife should not be classified as a folding knife. There is some kind of thing that the first is statute law and the second case law. I am not a lawyer but if you follow all the links from the link in my above post you can see how many acts they are and how complicated the whole thing is.

Perhaps some legally minded person out there can clarify the lock thing?

I can tell you a story from personal experience.

A friend of mine and I were walking near Picadilly circus (Central London) when a drug dealer came up to us and tried to sell us some gear. We told him to "Foxtrot Oscar" and the guy got pretty mad and started following us giving us grief. So we turned around and chased him. He ran like the pussy he was and jumped on to the back of a motorbike and they sped away.
When we had finished laughing I went to get a burger while my friend went off to take a piss. While I was in Burger King my friend saw the drug dealer dude on the bike, stationary. So being the warrior he is, he went up to the guy and started freaking him out (stupid but we were both a bit drunk). The drug dealer said he was going to shoot my friend., my friend eased out his rostfrei fake delica (he didn't open it) and basically said "come on then if you think your hard enough" the drug dealer drove off.
I then met up with my friend, we said goodnight and I went home. The next day my friend didn't show up to work.
It turns out the drug dealer went round the corner and grassed up my friend for having a knife to a nearby policeman. Just after I said goodbye to him my friend walked round the corner and was jumped by a specialist firearms unit (SWAT) and carted off to the cells. He didn't really expect an MP5 in the face on his trip home.
He now has on his record that he was carrying an offensive weapon etc.. It was just that he had the knife on him. Not that he was acting in a threatening way with it.
Interestingly although the law states "with a cutting edge of less than 3" " when the police measured the knife they measured the whole blade and said "oh dear thats 1mm longer than 3" " in order to get him in to even more trouble than just it having a lock.
The moral of this story is A) don't flash your knife about when you are a drunk idiot. B) Don't carry a lock knife in London.

K.
 
Looks like I'll be bringing in sub-three inch throwaways if I come in.

The FRN delica has a blade just over 3 inchs, the steel one has it just under three. Both are too big to pass a knife-phobic brit LEO.

The smallest knife that I personally believe can be used for SD is the spyderco jester, which can be held in a three finger grip with the thumb fixed behind the hump. Even the steel one holds well, and the blade is below 2" and the handle is very small and short. You also have the option of serrations, which I like in a small blade. Only thing, the knife is clipless and it's slow.

The knife is so small no one can possible see it as offensive, of course in a facist state like GB, you can still be fixed up if they want to, but it will be harder for them.

With two inches, you are on par with the spyderco dragonfly, copilot, mouse, navigator, whatever. But the whole jester, blade and handle, looks much smaller. Imagine holding that up in court alongside your normal 7 inch randall or military-style knife.

When your drug dealer came back to the Burger King, possibly that crimnial was following you to give you to the police. Criminals love to do that, you got to be careful of that, but easier said with hindsight.

Also when you have a confrontation or incident, leave that area as soon as possible, even if you are on the "winning" end. The loser often goes to the police with some sob story, and why do you want to deal with the police?

If you don't want to break the scene, dump your blade first, then make a police report, make sure that your side of the story goes in first. put the MP5s on the dealer. And write it on paper so the police have a written record and must take action.

Your friend when arrested, should have said, I took this fake delica from the drug dealer, it's his knife, I disarmed him, where the eff were you when he attacked me? And I'm going to sue you for police brutality and racism.

I'm sorry for your friend, looks like he got a rough deal. As I said, there are many good things about GB, but not its facist nanny-state laws.
 
Hi, Thanks for the advice. I can see when that would come in handy. Unfortunately the whole of Picadilly is under CCTV surveillance. (of actually quite impressive clarity!) Big brother is watching you!

Reminds me of a story. I used to work in a shop for a while that sold SAK+ Leatherman only (being British). I got talking to an American customer about knives. He had come over here on holiday. Unfortunately he had to go to the American embassy to sort out some visa thing. The American embassy is surrounded by UK Police (DPG) (before you get to the American security). He mentioned, before being searched, that he had his beloved SOG Air on him. The British Police arrested him, destroyed the knife and he only avoided prosecution by a whisker because he was an American citizen!

Welcome to the UK

I checked out the Lock knife thing and basically it's illegal to carry one.

Unfortunately, the law says "with regard to section 139 of the Criminal Justice Act, 1988, a locking folder is to be treated as a fixed blade", and thus illegal to carry at all times in a public place, unless you can provide one of a number of certain mentioned defences.

when I worked at the outdoor shop I asked a Police officer about leatherman tools. Because many models have a locking blade (Supertool, Wave etc..) he said that although he carried one and thought they were great. If he caught someone in the street with one he would arrest them :barf:

As I said. Welcome to the UK :mad:
 
Kiri, thanks for your response, and welcome to the other "Political" forum.

The knife laws in GB sound crazy, even worse than in SEAsia. There must be someway that people can come together and stop this crazed destruction of civil liberties.

I wanted to vist London, see Kew and the Museums and also the Eden Project. But now, I'm thinking, eff it.

It is a disgusting and disrespectful fallacy to think that by denying people the right and means to defend themselves, crime will be reduced. Crime is reduced by getting tough on criminals, not criminalising innocent people.

I'm sorry, but you brits need an organisation like the NRA to protect freedoms in GB. And also to point out the crazed fallacies propagated by the present admin on crime.

Just think, lets say a 80+year old grandfather, a hero of WW2, spitfire pilot whatever, worked with charities his whole life, never been in trouble his whole life, carries his beloved case locking folder, and its over three inches. Are you going to say he is a criminal, manhandle him, fine him and even jail him?

Such laws are the height of complete absurdity, and I'm sorry to say, could only be passed by a facist labour govt.

The increase in crime, if any, is due to useless police management and weakness on crime by the labour govt. They don't know how to deal with the situation, so they start by witch-hunting innocent people.

Just like primitive natives trying to find culprits to sacrifice to end the drought, I'm sorry, but this is the GB version of that.

Crazy and absurd.
 
One last request, do you mind directing me to where it is stated that a locking folder shall be regarded as a fixed blade?

I was reading the CJA section 139, and couldn't find it. Is it case law or an amendment? I may be mistaken, but it seems that blade length is much more important to determine legality rather than ability to lock. You could even say that a slipjoint "locks" open.

Basically it just has to be as small as possible. I respect Spyderco for trying to help brit knife users, but IMHO, the Spyderco UK pen knife can easily fall out of the definition, all you have to do is interpret it in a more narrow way.

If the court wants to get you for carrying a spydie UK penknife, believe me they will be able to get you. It's just too big. My feeling is that if I get into legal trouble, I would rather have a jester on me, than a UK penknife.
 
OK, I've read up some comments on the "locking" matter.

It's based on case law, Harris vs DPP, in which the court was persuaded that a locking knife should be regarded as a fixed blade. Later on, the decision was overturned on appeal, with the court saying that it is up to parliament to decide this issue, if a locking knife fell under s.139 of the CJA.

Interestingly enough, the draft of the CJA at first banned locking knives, but in the finished product, the passage banning locking folding knives was specifically taken out, with minister explaining very clearly that he did not want normal people carrying ordinary folding locking pocket knives under 3 inches to be caught under the section(according to the forumites of britishblades.com). He said that he understood that it was necessary for the pocketknives to lock so that they could be used safely.

So in practical terms, if the LEOs stop and search you, if you carry ANY kind of knife, of any length, locking, unlocking, they can charge you for it, but that charge may not stick in court.

In the end, the LEOs will be whacking you on behaviour, not "locking", if you are carrying under 3 inches. Some LEOs will be knife-phobic and just arrest anybody carrying a knife, because they are just basically useless cowards, who transpose their own fears of knife attack onto innocent knife-users.

They disrespect their fellow man, and those LEOs should be sacked, they are just one small level above criminals. A bad LEO is even worse than a criminal.

In the end, IMO, it will depend upon your perceived intention, how your knife looks, as to whether the court will regard it as an "offensive" weapon, which can be literally anything.

So if you carry well under 3 inches, locking folder, don't act intoxicated or suspiciously, say your knife is for work or cutting fruits, never for self-defence, it will minimize your chances of a bad outcome.

As we all know, the best way is not even to attract attention in the first place.

Once more let me say, I believe that all people have the right to defend themselves and their families, and must be allowed the means to do so.

I am not frightened of good people who carry knives.

Stay safe. ;)
 
Hi,

Thanks for that, your research in to the CJA is very interesting. I did not realise that Harris vs DPP had been overturned on appeal.
I think this just leads to even more confusion!

You are absolutely correct. The Police decide whether to arrest you or not and by the time the CPS decides whether it is trial worthy or not, you have been locked up over night and your knife may well have been destroyed (Interestingly they photocopy the knife to use the photocopy as evidence and then destroy the actual knife!)

What would be great is if a Judge ruled emphatically that a lock knife under 3" was legal. that would make a lot of people a lot happier!

Unfortunately the way British society is going it's much more likely that lock knives will be banned in the future.

The narrow minded stupidity that occurs in the unholy circle of Government / Media / Sheeple, makes me sick.

At the moment because a child was tragically killed by a nut with an air gun, the government is mulling over banning air guns! when will these peole learn it is not the object that commits the crime, it's the criminal holding it!
 
By the way!

Do still come and visit the UK! Apart from some of our ridiculous laws it's still a pretty cool place :cool: . Kew Gardens are awesome and London still has some fantastic things to see and do! (it's actually reasonably safe in London as long as you avoid certain areas)

It's worth seeing the UK now before Labours ridiculous immigration policy destroys what is left of Britain forever. If you leave it another 10 years (when we may well be a Muslim country) then I am afraid the character and charm of our nation will be gone forever!
 
thread is still moving along, I 've got a pretty good idea of what kind or brand name of knife you could carry in GB, legally. How about back to the multi-tool, what is "ok" for carry in GB ?
 
Kiri, thanks for your response. I wish you the very best in the UK.

I have been to the UK before, I really liked the museums, art galleries, botanic gardens were especially nice. As a centre for historical western culture, it is hard to beat. I like the UK, but its present govt and laws seem a bit hard to swallow.

My country used to be a british colony before the japanese took it over in WW2. Then after WW2, the brits kindly left us on our own.

I also hope that immigration does not change the character of the country, immigrants are supposed to integrate into and add to the local culture, not OVERWHELM it, and create something totally different.

In my country(20% muslim), we keep the muslims from overwhelming it by selective immigration, getting chinese from China and elsewhere to come in to balance the expanding muslim community. Also we control and licence the mosques and preachers so that they cannot create trouble in our secular, all religions are accepted society. Basically we get friendly muslims to be the leaders of the muslim community and they police it for the benefit of all of us.

Squid meat, I am not very familiar with multi-tools, but the idea is, the smaller and more friendly-looking the better.
 
Please bare with me.
I was stabbed by a youth weilding a butterfly knife during a mugging this was maybe 8 years ago. Long story short the guy that stabbed me eventually got off of the hook and walked scott free because of the police's slow attitude.That type of knife used is now classified as an illegal weapon in the UK and warrents an on the street arrest if its found (im not sure about the legislation back when it happened as I was too young to even spell the word I was maybe 13yo) Now if the F**King twat that used that weapon back then only had access to a sharp screw driver or a stanley knife as exotic knives like the one used are very hard to come by (and the guy was in his mid teens) still walked the street with the same intention of mugging someone? I can only speculate but he probably would resort to the same force but with those comonly available devices.

Onto a factual experience of attempted mugging with a make-shift weapon. A push bike chain and padlock. I was beaten over the head with this make-shift flail a few times in full swing just because the muggers again wanted to steal from me (I hate to add that this happened in daylight on a crowded street half a mile from the largest police depot in the city) If kids have access to butterfly knives and have intent of doing harm or even causing fatalities with them what is the differance to having your skull cracked and some brain damage caused by muggers using ordinary every day items? What is even more alarming is how they can sidestep the leagal risks of street searches by using these comon every day use items! Surely the whole campaign against knives makes victims of such attacks even less capable to defend themselves especially when in my case the public turned a blind eye to the situation as it was happening on the street.

Knife amnestiy is another piss take, used by my Policing district and probably all over the country.The law will honestly give amnesty to people who own or deal in the so called problematic "illegal" knives if they deposit them for destruction at the local police station.I wonder how many utility or Stanely knives were found in those buckets or 2x4's, baseball bats etc etc? But the problem still remains street and violent crime is still going on everyday and the victim is always the person which is defenceless and law abiding.Some people would recomend to get to self defence classes and learn to use your hands but todays costs to learn a martial art is astronomical (let alone the training time involved) compared to a solid visual deterrant like a £10 knife.

3" or, 0" ?

I know what i would choose anyday of the week.
 
Kermit, thanks for your words, and welcome to the forum. You are so right and I am glad that you were not hurt badly by your stabbing and beating.

The present labour govt follows the liberal attitude that all people need to be controlled, as all can suddenly become crazed knife/gun wielding fanatics at the drop of a hat, slicing and dicing up innocent others, or god forbid, their betters.

The conservative american attitude, as espoused by that bastion of liberty and freedom, the NRA, is that we should trust people with weapons to behave responsibly, we RESPECT you and TRUST you to have these weapons, to use them to protect yourself and your families from criminals.

They RESPECT you, and are willing to take the risk that you may suddenly go crazy and attack them, because they have balanced it against your need to protect your family and they know you must have means to do so.

It is love, respect and consideration for their fellow man.

They think, if we make a law banning weapons, innocent people will follow the law, but criminals will not, thus leaving innocent people defenseless, at the mercy of criminals. You can't keep weapons out of the hands of criminals by passing a law. You just can't enforce it practically. Criminals will always carry weapons and use them for evil purposes, that is why they are called criminals. You can't outlaw it, just like you can't stop crime by outlawing it.

But you can stop self-defence by outlawing it.

The liberal doesn't care if you are attacked and killed because you are unarmed and unable to defend yourself. The liberal has no RESPECT for you, he is only interested in controlling you, to make you conform to his idea of the way society should be run. It is a passive-aggressive way of power-rape by using the society and the law.

People who fear a normal family man who uses a knife to defend his knife and family from a viscious criminal attack feel that way because they are not familiar with weapons and thus feel the fear of knife-phobia. To someone who carries blades and guns, it is just a normal thing, a good man under stress defending his family. Why do you fear him?

The way to reduce this fear is to teach all children from young to use guns and knives.

In my society all the men have done military service. If I open my folder on the trading floor of the stockexchange to cut my apple, nobody will blink unless it has a huge 5, 6, blade. But in the UK, I will probably get a bunch of police jumping on top of me.

Funny, since I used to be a policeman myself.
 
SYK your last post rings true.With knife phobia it is usually an uneducated fear which is spurred on by rising (?) knife-crime reports and awful news headlines like the murder of Damilola Taylor. But as the police will have to agree, any criminal activity involving the mere sight of a knife is listed as a weapon orientated crime hence the usual drama and statistic rises that follow. I from my personal experience know that laws wont keep people safe, maybe safer but never totally protected. Theres a saying we have in the UK and its probably universal around the globe "there is never a copper when you need one" and this is a sentiment I fear everyday when I go to work or buy a newspaper, I will never feel fully protected no matter how extreme laws become. Vulnerablity is a problem with these propsed Knife laws, limiting or disarming law abiding citezens EDC is only weakening the fear and resistance that anyone intent on commiting criminal persuits will experience (if as par usual there is never a copper at the scene when you need them). I could complain more but like everything in life there does need to be a limit and at the moment I'm happy we do have at least a tolerable law for an every day carry knife still I could argue more concerning locking mechanism blades.

Recently there was a much disgussed law change allowing people in the home who are victims of "forced entry crimes" to defend themselves with (must add) not without leagal investigation in a court room after the event) fatal results if life was threatened, this would include utilizing items like a knife from the kitchen draw or the hammer from the tool box or the shotgun from the gun cabinet.

As i know first hand many other serious violent crimes do not happen on a private property but on the street, on the deserted railway platform after dark etc etc this then puts dual standards on self defence which is biased imo against street self defence.
 
Thanks for your post, kermit. Again, welcome to the forum. Most current discussion goes on at "political".
 
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